Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

Where did you learn that it's a drive that very few men can restrain from acting on?

Did you grow up in a fairly extreme religious group? I can't imagine what circs have made you feel that way.

It's not fair on men and it's not fair on you to believe that.

Why do some people keep referring to sex as a 'need'? Has anyone ever died from lack of sex? No. Many women have died and are dying right now directly and indirectly from sex and of course men also from sexually transmitted disease and I suppose also from violent sexual attacks but from lack of sexual contact with another or others or from denial of masturbation? I am pretty confident that has never happened.

Yes some people male and female may kill themselves from loneliness and part of that may include sexual frustration or relationship breakdown but there probably a lot more to the reasons than lack of sex. Before anyone accuses me of heartlessness. I am a person who has been lonely all my life, still am but have come to terms. When I was younger was I tortured by the sense of exclusion from sexual relationships? Yes. Did I try to remedy it by doing what men imagine is so easy for women , i.e having sex with any man who'd have me regardless of compatibility? Yes. Immediately found that worse than loneliness alone.

Incidentally I know I was not then, and would not be now, the only young woman who had it suggested directly to my face by several men that working as a prostitute would be an easy way to earn and they said could not understand why I did not do it. That was been by work colleagues and part of it they actually thought it was some kind of compliment. And now of course it is all so much more prevalent because of the Internet.

@UpstreamSwimmer

I found it under the trending threads. And because I'm invested in the argument, I keep going. I could ask you the same question, why do you keep posting?

Fair question.

Many reasons.

I was unfortunately born with the ability to notice the difference in how boys and girls were treated. It would have been s much easier life if I hadn't!

I mean not when I was a baby obv but as long as I can remember noticed. And connected.

For me it's as simple as seeing day to day through my life how women and girls are seen, treated in a load of situations. Some of that is having sheets always noticed how women and girls as soon as through puberty are seen as sex objects by so many men. Rather than whole people.

Due to my lifelong.. inability to not see it and therefore be like all my friends could.

I saw things in the news. I read about what happens to women around the world. And children. And boys and men. For this topic the harm done globally by the sex industry esp men paying for sex. I mean massive outrageous sickening appalling harm all over the world every minute of every day.

And I accept that some people are happy and make s good living etc but that does not negate all the other things.

And I was s girl and am a woman and I know, and I know loads of other women know. How fucking horrible and dangerous men can be. And it's sadly lots of them.

I have s friend who at 15 had sex with 2 men for a bit of weed. She had a really abusive family. I was in the house and didn't think much of it really at that age. She was woohoo I got some weed! We smoked it.

I've also been offered money for sex more than once when I was maybe 17 . 19, 20. At 17 I thought about it for s moment. I was not in a good place.

And we know don't we that loads of women who sell sex start young. How? They meet a man who suggests it. Maybe he grooms. Girls who have been sexually abused, have terrible home lives. Care leavers. Are vulnerable to this.

In the end it's there but for the grace of God.

But my thoughts won't change anything.

They won't make you react I expect except to say prove this and not that and etc.

I care so much about all the women and children and men around the world who are doing this when they do not really have any choice. Or literally have no choice.

My view is that any man who pays for sex is not s good man. He is ignoring what he knows about exploitation etc because he wants to fuck someone for cash.

Long probably but that's why.

Ha MegaSauseHead, I just composed and thought I had posted a long post asking why some people keep saying sex is a 'need' for anyone. Is it just mental and lexical sloppiness or do they actually believe it?

My main point is no man or woman ever died from lack of sex so it is not a 'need'. Untold millions (women, children and men) throughout history and prehistory have died directly and indirectly from sex and sexually related events: pregnancy, childbirth, disease, violence. And are suffering and dying right now. Nobody is dying from lack of sex.

Loneliness is an unpleasant thing but I don't believe it is usually relieved by sex and neither do I believe it is usually solely responsible for suicide when that step is taken. Yes I do know what I am talking about and yes I do sound heartless. That's the short version!

I think s recent poster said it was a need like food etc

But they had very peculiar ideas full stop.

So I wouldn't dwell on that too much.

@ NiceGerbil, Don't you think the common assumption that sex is a 'need' is often used as a justification for prostitution? For example, as I understand it in countries were brothels were legally permitted and controlled (thinking 19/20th century France here) part of the justification was the medically accepted idea that men had sexual needs they had to satisfy for their health but unmarried women should not be seduced and married women were another man's property. Women of course were divided into the two classes whore and madonna. I think the idea that men using prostitutes protects 'good' women is also still used as a serious argument by some. So I don't think it is a trivial mistake some posters are making here and it is generally assumed in society

I've only seen one poster say it's a need (although it's been a long thread!).

It doesn't feel like a theme that either 'side' are. Well. Even mentioning to be honest!

The poster who said it recently had very peculiar ideas generally.

'So I don't think it is a trivial mistake some posters are making here and it is generally assumed in society'.

Like I said I've not seen it. It would be those arguing that (in various situations) it's fine I think? Upstream has been the main poster with that view and I'm pretty sure he's not said that.

Given that I don't think it's really been said on the thread, does that put your mind at rest?

I am sorry NiceGerbil, I am trusting that you don't mean to be patronising by assuming I am somehow disturbed ("put your mind at rest") because I have stuck to one point in 2 posts but that is how your response is coming across. I have actually followed this thread at a distance so to speak so I have noticed that the sex/need argument has arisen several times. I know it is an argument made generally in society also as a justification for prostitution and pornography. So I think the definition of 'need' and how that relates to the moral question of 'goodness' (as referenced in the op) is very pertinent to this thread.

I don't know.. maybe it's been covered this is a long thread.. there are varying levels to this. Can you really say the 20 something year old woman who doesn't do drugs, drink or have any history of abuse who enters into a sugar baby type relationship with a man is being exploited? I know it's a relatively new thing with technology but it's becoming quite widespread. I could see this soon becoming the dominant form of sex work.

Obviously traditional sex work is extremely exploitive... but it's not all equal and likewise the men who are customers are not all equally bad depending on what type they engage with. Porn is sex work too and any man who consumes porn is guilty of exploitation as well. Like I said there are levels to it.

It's quite an old fashioned, misogynistic view that just won't go away.

That men NEED sex is so ingrained in our society that it doesn't really need to be explicitly stated. Actions scream it.

Like the fact that a person can be sent for sex therapy and surrogate partners for sexual dysfunction. Like wives being expected to give sex to their husbands on demand.

It's insidious. It's vile.

This thread is about selling sex- in the prostitution sense.

Not about other things.

Shelddd I don't recognise your name from this thread!

Oh sorry take it back- got you confused.

Ignore that sorry!

Apologies if that was how my post came across.

I've not seen it as a theme on this thread at all.

One poster with very strange ideas generally mentioned it.

Certainly upstream hasn't.

I don't think there've been that many other posters on that 'side' tbh.

So I'm really not getting why it's s point you're pushing.

But anyway.

' I know it is an argument made generally in society also as a justification for prostitution and pornography. So I think the definition of 'need' and how that relates to the moral question of 'goodness' (as referenced in the op) is very pertinent to this thread.'

First off I don't think that sex as a need for men- in the sense of its a necessity like food etc is prevalent in society.

If it were genuinely seen that way by society (are we talking about the UK? Good to understand the context) then that would have immense repurcussions.

Is 'goodness' in a moral (religious?) sense what the OP meant?

I doubt it.

The introduction of the concept of morality is... Interesting. Probably not helpful.

Most people in society aren't taking s moral stance in the way previous generations would have used the word moral.

It's s word that has become very loaded TBH.

I mean if I say I dunno. Robbing elderly people is not good.

Sure that's a moral view. It's immoral. But it's more than immoral. It's cruel and unconscionable and... Wrong.

I think the moral thing is a side track TBH. An interesting one. Maybe another thread?

In general no I don't think that society believes that sex for men is an essential need. Nor do I believe that it's used as a justification for men paying for sex, generally.

I think it was in the past, maybe. This is about now though.

Religion does not come in to it for me, I was using moral in the sense of how each one of us treats other people. In this instance whether it can ever be morally right to choose to pay to use another person's body for your sexual satisfaction, directly or indirectly. As others have said we are non of us wholly 'good' or 'bad'. Personally it would never be how I would describe any adult. I feel sympathy for those who have to deal with the question in their own lives.

I should not have said I 'know' that the view that sex is a need is prevelant in society as I don't know that . I haven't conducted a survey, don't know if anyone ever has or how reliable that would be anyway. It is just the impression I have formed from my experience and from the general looseness of conflating the terms 'need' and 'desire ' in so many areas.

They are conflated by men who like to be able to buy sex

' In this instance whether it can ever be morally right to choose to pay to use another person's body for your sexual satisfaction, directly or indirectly'

This is about directly. Paying for sexual contact with another individual.

Your first part is not well defined.

What about paying a child or the person selling their body? (Happens all the time).

What about 10 men paying a fragile 85 to woman? And it will cause her serious injury?

What about the aid workers paying local women in Haiti. In the middle of a crisis?

What about a woman being procured for a man known to be violent and interested in throttling?

What about men oversees who are very big tall westerners finding a tiny woman because they know she will be hurt and that makes them feel like big men? (Read a vile story about this once. The woman was injured and crying. The man was upset about that. Apparently although he wanted to feel like he was making her 'take' him and he had a big penis it didn't cross his mind the damage he could do).

So many scenarios!

And the term morality is tbh just not in my thinking, I know what it means but... I'm not. Sort of. It's not a word I use. Others like harm I do kind of have in my standard way of thinking. For me using that word is more of a philosophical thing and I don't really... I know what it means but not intrinsically etc so it's really hard to talk around that concept.

Like if I said. Random example. Let's think about this maths problem in multiple dimensions (more than 4). You would understand the words but conceptually you'd find it difficult to get to grips with the essential meaning. (Unless you did maths to a fairly advanced level... It's the example that's the thing here not whether that means something to you or not!).

Hunting the sex traffickers on channel 4 at the moment.

Unsurprisingly adultwork is a platform they use to flaunt the women.

The profiles featured (albeit faces blurred to protect the women's identity) appear carefully curated with professional photos. All very 'high class' looking.

The reality behind the facade is a group of aging, ugly men profiting from trauma.

I realise you're referring to men here, but I have a friend that has. She is staunchly single for myriad reasons and doesn't want any complications in her life. I admit I was very shocked when she first told me (probably a decade ago) but she's still my friend and her reasoning made me check my judgment, if you will.

I could never in a billion years, but she sees it as a 'service' same as getting a pedicure or a massage or a haircut.

@tomorrowalready

Religion does not come in to it for me, I was using moral in the sense of how each one of us treats other people. In this instance whether it can ever be morally right to choose to pay to use another person's body for your sexual satisfaction, directly or indirectly. As others have said we are non of us wholly 'good' or 'bad'. Personally it would never be how I would describe any adult. I feel sympathy for those who have to deal with the question in their own lives.

I should not have said I 'know' that the view that sex is a need is prevelant in society as I don't know that . I haven't conducted a survey, don't know if anyone ever has or how reliable that would be anyway. It is just the impression I have formed from my experience and from the general looseness of conflating the terms 'need' and 'desire ' in so many areas.

Good points. Why discuss this in the abstract when it is a very physical issue.

Interesting to get a real example!

Can I ask some questions? I'm assuming she's seeing men here sorry if that's not correct.

Does she stick to one for a while? IME for women it's better if you know what each other like (or in this case he does).

How does she find them? Do they come to her home, is she ever concerned for her safety?

Why not go out and get a random to shag and never see him again?

Why doesn't she have concern about their circs?

Does she worry about STDs?

Does she worry about blackmail/ robbery etc?

In the end she's just as bad.

@NiceGerbil

Regarding the sex/need issue, indeed as you noted I've never said it's a need. It most certainly is an extremely strong urge and drive, and men as a class can be swayed by sex or the promise thereof.

As with all generalities, there are those for whom this statement will be either more or less valid, but as a generality it holds water. You only have to see how many men have risked/lost everything for a lay (when cheating on their OH for example). And while you may counter that this is because those men were arseholes, it is still the case that the medium through which they stumbled was sex.

Truth be told this isn't simply due to such men being disgusting, but it's an actual biological drive. No different than any other species which has the instinctive urge to procreate and propagate its seed. So of course nobody is saying 'men' can't keep it in their pants, but as a generality, it is extremely difficult.

Now coming back to the 'need' question, we would first have to define 'need'. If it is simply that which without having it we would die, then no, sex isn't a need.

But if you broaden out the term to mean whatever is necessary for one to be physically and emotionally happy and healthy, then sex is a need. At least for men (and I'm speaking as one).

To be clear, by 'sex' I don't mean just an ejaculation, for that can easily me self-administered. What I mean is an intimate relationship with another person. This is as much a need as any other of our so called needs that help us thrive emotionally.