Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

Lol at Movin4wards and their killer nail bar gotcha.

Sadly for them we've been over that at reasonable length earlier in the thread

@NiceGerbil

I've seen reviews on there where they said the woman was clearly being forced to do it. From tears to a tiny note saying help to seeing that the woman must be in pain due to the obvious signs on her body.

None said they left. None said they reported it. All fucked them anyway. And then wrote a poor review.

I cannot understand how anyone could read this and still be trotting out the "it's a complex / grey area, isn't it"

No it fucking isn't.

Thank you to @Lave and all you sharing your experiences. I'm so in awe of your strength

@Maggiesfarm

It's not always just about sex though, NiceGerbil. Lonely people will sometimes do it for company. I know that sounds pathetic but it is a fact that there are lonely people in the world and spending time with someone pleasant and kindly is an attractive prospect.

Then they can join a club. Go to a library. Make friends. You don't get to stick yourself in someone else's body just because you want to

Then they can join a club. Go to a library. Make friends. You don't get to stick yourself in someone else's body just because you want to

This. As I said upthread, funny how these apparently 'just lonely' men want to combat that loneliness with women they deem as (mostly) younger than them women they deem to be sexually attractive to them... almost as if it's not loneliness, just an entitled attitude towards sex.

It's nothing to do with loneliness. It's wanting a shag and getting it. Pretty much like ordering a pizza but much grimmer.

I am looking for a polite word to express my reaction to some of the posts on this thread. I know a lot of prostituted women and not one of them would EVER say anything like

“ I earn a lot of money and have sex with a lot of nice people “.

I think a good word is surprised. Or perhaps incredulous.

@SourAppleChew

It's nothing to do with loneliness. It's wanting a shag and getting it. Pretty much like ordering a pizza but much grimmer.

And I’d like to respectfully disgree with @SourAppleChew. It’s not about getting a shag. You can get a shag anytime you want by meeting someone on tinder. It might cost you a couple of drinks.

It’s not about wanting sex. It’s about wanting control and power, it’s about buying the right to abuse a woman.

If you read the review sites that comes over loud and clear. They think they are buying HER and should be allowed to to use her body and control her.

Endless complaints about her lack of enthusiasm, her appearance and her lack of acting skills. Any attempts by the women to set boundaries ( I will do X but not Y) are met with outrage.

*There are many massage parlours where you can choose to get a simple massage, even excellent ones, and at the end there's an option of a happy ending tacked on. Usually the masseuse/masseur will offer it of their own volition, in hope of getting a tip. We're not talking about medical massages where there is never an option of happy endings.

In the example of the aforementioned massage parlours, someone may choose to get a nice massage and even as a side bonus derive sexual pleasure from being touched by a pretty woman, yet that is considered consensual. Yet the last 'happy' minute tacked on willingly for a price is somehow rape?*

This says an awful lot about the type of places that you spend your time. I have been for more massages than I can count and have never been offered a ‘happy ending’.

Ditto the fact that you keep referring to paid sex as ‘providing a service’. Sex is not and should never be a service. It should be something that takes place between consenting adults without the exchange of money.

I won’t get into the previous arguments about how exactly one might be able to tell if a sex worker has been coerced or is addicted to drugs etc, because I think it’s obvious that anyone who thinks that paying for sex is acceptable doesn’t actually care.

There are women on here telling you that they were coerced, sharing stories of abuse and you continue to bang on about paying for a service. Please read the thread and listen to what they are telling you. This is not a simple transaction, however much you might like to believe that it is. This is abuse, with real victims.

I know we are singing from the same songsheet Odette but I don't agree with this

'You can get a shag anytime you want by meeting someone on tinder. It might cost you a couple of drinks.'

It's not like that for most men though is it, I don't think.

I agree it's about power though.

Even if they can get a shag via tinder they have to play nice. They have to make pleasant conversation. She will likely have his number. In bed unless he's essentially a rapist he needs to try to keep her at least s bit happy or she might call it quits. She may not want to do the things he wants. He can't tell her what to do there's no menu etc.

If he pays he can go along, he will presumably have checked what he wants is on the menu. He does not have to pay any attention to her. He's paid for xyz and so that's what he will have. He can go as fast or slow as he likes. He does not have to concern himself with how she feels.

Yes it's about power.

@LuaDipa

Ditto the fact that you keep referring to paid sex as ‘providing a service’. Sex is not and should never be a service. It should be something that takes place between consenting adults without the exchange of money.

So you say but you provide no evidence or argument to back up that statement. I could say the same thing about literally anything, and It'd be as meaningless as your example:

Filing taxes should never be a service. Preparing a meal should be something that takes place between consenting adults without the exchange of money. Paying someone to cut your hair is exploitation. Etc etc.

@NiceGerbil

You acknowledge that almost always for a man to get sex he has to put in an effort, often a significant amount. So how does it follow that anyone who decides to simply pay cash instead of doing the work is doing so because of power? On the contrary, it's because cash is often the cheapest thing, and they just want a simple transaction.

And what you wrote before about incels and women being gatekeepers of sex, is true in some cases. But the broader truth is that women being gatekeepers - which they are - simply means that as a class men want it and women are in charge of supplying it.

In order for a (straight) man to get it, a woman must give it. In some men this arouses ire and anger, much the same as any needy class has anger towards the perceived gatekeepers (for example the poor against the rich).

Other men understand that being angry will not get them anywhere, so they enter into mutually pleasurable relationships. But in all cases it's the women who hold the power in that regard.

This BTW is what infuriates me when feminists bang on about society being patriarchal and men holding the power. It's true that for some things men hold the power, but equally, there are other instances where women hold the power. Overall, there's a balance.

This BTW is what infuriates me when feminists bang on about society being patriarchal and men holding the power. It's true that for some things men hold the power, but equally, there are other instances where women hold the power. Overall, there's a balance.

What balance would that be? Society overall is still patriarchal and misogynistic, for example some men think they have a right to buy a woman's body.

I've been thinking about this thread and the others I've seen like it.

I think that it comes down to:

Men tend to empathise with men. This is seen all over the place. Many also seem not to really care about or try to understand women's experiences and perspective. This was seen during metoo a lot. I saw it with loads of men in my workplace. 'nice' family men.

These threads seem to attract posts from men who pay for sex themselves, or those who think other men should be able to do this if they wish. Some women as well take this view of course.

Women tend to empathise with women. (Not always of course). From their own experiences etc. Knowing other women who have had various experiences. Etc. For the majority of women on these threads that's the reason they are on the no side. These women understand why men want to pay for sex and consider it has overall negative impact in s number of ways which are too big to ignore.

So in the end it's never going to end in agreement is it.

The good news for the yay crowd is that it's available pretty much everywhere. Even if not legal for either or both parties the punters are rarely the ones who get into trouble with the police. Many places it's AOK - Germany there are set price as many women in the time paid for as you like, whatever you want etc.

There are any number of options available from pricey to dead cheap. There will always be someone who will be prepared to do (whatever) for money.

The 'sex positive' and 'no kink shaming' groups along with mainstream porn including increasingly extreme acts as standard have meant that those catering to wider tastes are more available and even for the very extreme I imagine someone would do it for the right price if they needed the money badly. And also there are more ideas for things to try.

It's not going to be banned here any time soon.

Overall there is no balance.

Women categorically do not hold the power.

Men who want sex take it - either by paying for it, or raping women.

Not quite sure what you’re talking about.

So I suppose a question I'd be really interested in an answer to i

Why post on threads like this at all?

We are no threat to you. We have zero chance of having this taken away from you.

I don't go on sites where men talk about their experiences paying for sex , review, discuss how awful those who think it's harmful etc are. I'm sure there are plenty.

Why are you bothering? I don't understand. None of this conversation impacts you in any way. So why post?

Why are you bothering? I don't understand. None of this conversation impacts you in any way. So why post?

Because people like that poster can't bear the fact that women might have a discussion about an issue that negatively affects women and that they might not centre men in that discussion. All discussions must have men and men's wants at the forefront and if we forget this then we will be sharply reminded that feminism is basically just "banging on" and told that there is a balance/we are equal. Silly women. We should remember our place.

Best just to ignore.

'You acknowledge that almost always for a man to get sex he has to put in an effort, often a significant amount. So how does it follow that anyone who decides to simply pay cash instead of doing the work is doing so because of power? On the contrary, it's because cash is often the cheapest thing, and they just want a simple transaction.'

????????

Because the effort put in, is to get the woman to like you, fancy you enough. And not judge you as a risk. To consent to sex with you.

It's not like the effort of mowing a lawn or something.

The idea that s man would be primarily simply wanting sex and do what he needs to in terms of effort to secure it... Yes I mean it happens a lot but that essentially sees the woman's company etc as simply effort in order to get sex is pretty awful.

The idea that he might actually like her, find her funny, enjoy her company seems to be totally alien to your way of thinking here.

@BlatantlyNameChanged

Why are you bothering? I don't understand. None of this conversation impacts you in any way. So why post?

Because people like that poster can't bear the fact that women might have a discussion about an issue that negatively affects women and that they might not centre men in that discussion. All discussions must have men and men's wants at the forefront and if we forget this then we will be sharply reminded that feminism is basically just "banging on" and told that there is a balance/we are equal. Silly women. We should remember our place.

Best just to ignore.

I wonder.

I do wonder.

A friend of DH got drunk and decided to confide in me that he had paid for sex. No idea why. He knows I'm a long term feminist.

Anyway he told me that he sometimes felt he had to pay for sex because he had X (not very major) thing that made him feel self conscious about his body and he didn't think he'd ever get s girlfriend.

He told it like a confession. A wanting to get it off his chest. It came across as him drunkenly wanting me to say. I understand. In your situation it's understandable.

Of course I didn't say that.

He's been married about a decade now.

I seem to get blokes confessing to me about this sort of thing. Dunno why. So it's not just this bloke.

I do wonder if there's some of that going on with some posters.

'Men who want sex take it - either by paying for it, or raping women.'

Or for most-

Going without and wanking...

I find it the desire to insist the discussion excludes certain things interesting as well.

I would imagine the things that individual posters say are terrible (that happen all the time) reflect their personal lines. They do differ from poster to poster.

For me/ us it's all part of the same problem.

For most posters it goes this is fine what's the problem etc but NO this is bad and wrong and I'm not including that at all.

The fact that other men/ punters have their lines in different places doesn't seem relevant to them. It's usually very much about their personal POV and defending the things they think are no problem. But ignoring the fact that there's a load of other men in the mix.

I thought that it might be interesting to compare some cases where older women pay for sex or go on holiday with the intention of having sex with younger men

I found these documentaries on youtube

Women Who Travel For SEX Sun, sea and gigolos Full Documentary

The Beach Boys: Objects of Desire

Cowboys in Paradise- Western and Japanese women going on sex tours in Bali, Indonesia

It seems to me that the power dynamics are complicated and nuanced

Some of these women behave just like male sex tourists; entitled, wanting sex and treating the men that they pay for sex as objects to control

At the other end of the spectrum some of the women behave rather foolishly, believing that these men young enough to be their sons, or even grandsons, genuainly love them in a romatic way.

Then there are women who are somewhere in the middle of these 2 extremes.

Could the situation with the women have parallels with the situation of men who pay for sex?

Is it true that some man want power and control and treat women like objects, whereas some delude themselves that they are in romantic relationships? I believe that it is true, although I cannot, of course, know everything about everyone's motives.

I think the 'girlfriend experience' type thing in other countries maybe they tell themselves that.

The men on here are arguing it's purely a financial transaction for a service so it wouldn't apply to them.

Yes women pay for sex- I've read about those things too. That's exploitation as well.

The vast majority of men selling sex are selling to men.

Even if I was very desperate and no qualms I would no way have a random man come to my house etc. The physical etc dynamic is so different.

I would imagine (guess) those that do it's more someone they know, meet or are introduced to who they trust...

However.

This is all very different to the numbers and impact of the market for male customers.

Aside from the fact that the vast, vast, vast majority of people who pay for sex are men, it's not comparable when it comes to a power dynamic physically. The average man could physically overpower and assault the average woman. Not true of the reverse, so a totally different level of inherent danger and risk for the party being paid for sex. And a totally different level and type of power for the party paying.

Men alway see women as sex objects. Just look at all the films .., they are either relative/mothers or sex object. There is no in-between.

Most men think sex is an essential part of their life… hence the entitlement. Those men care nothing but their own satisfaction and gratitude. Part of that … is the self belief they give enjoyment in return! Ha!

[quote UpstreamSwimmer]@LuaDipa

Ditto the fact that you keep referring to paid sex as ‘providing a service’. Sex is not and should never be a service. It should be something that takes place between consenting adults without the exchange of money.

So you say but you provide no evidence or argument to back up that statement. I could say the same thing about literally anything, and It'd be as meaningless as your example:

Filing taxes should never be a service. Preparing a meal should be something that takes place between consenting adults without the exchange of money. Paying someone to cut your hair is exploitation. Etc etc.[/quote]
Interesting that you pick out this section of my post and completely disregard everything that I have said about the abusive nature of prostitution.

The examples you have provided are incomparable. An accountant doesn’t generally ‘perform their service’ to fund a drug habit. A hairdresser isn’t coerced into styling hair by an abusive partner/pimp. Someone preparing a meal isn’t placing themselves at significant risk of assault every time they switch the oven on.

You can try and justify this to yourself in whatever way makes you feel ok about it, but it is absolutely not ok. It is abuse, whichever way you choose to spin it and I struggle to understand how you can’t see that given everything that those involved in sex work have posted on this thread.