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Original poster

to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

999 replies

MissPrimaryCrafts · 09/07/2021 15:53

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 09/07/2021 21:22

[quote Walkaround]**@chickenyhead* - what do you mean transmen or biological women?! I think you mean and*. Btw, I thought, legally, you had to agree to live permanently in your acquired gender to legally change gender. In what way, shape or form can you claim to be living as a man if you are pregnant?[/quote]
I hope you get an answer to this.
It’s quite mind bending.

chickenyhead · 09/07/2021 21:22

That's to get a GRC. we all know how gender identity works, let's not be obtuse now.

I disagree with you that a vulnerable group should be denied rights, separate and equal. And this is ok.

Walkaround · 09/07/2021 21:24

No, I don’t know how anyone can possibly want to experience pregnancy if they want to be a man. Gender apparently actually means fuck all.

chickenyhead · 09/07/2021 21:25

@Walkaround

No, I don’t know how anyone can possibly want to experience pregnancy if they want to be a man. Gender apparently actually means fuck all.
Quite
Lolacat1234 · 09/07/2021 21:26

@invisiblesuit

Did Tamikka Brents sue? She should have.
To be fair I should edit my post to say she might have been aware as there was a lot of controversy at the time that this opponent was even allowed to fight (rightly so), but there is no legal obligation for anyone to declare they were born a man, which is just so so wrong!
UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 09/07/2021 21:26

DeRigueurMortis excellent post.

It certainly strikes me repeatedly that thetranswomen in the media in their late 40s and 50s seem to identify as 16-35 year old women, not as menopausal middle aged women! I read an interview with a much fêted transwoman in their 50s, local to where I grew up, who was identifying as pubescent - surely menopausal would be realistic, nobody goes through puberty in their 50s, its a once only experience!

KimmyAndMe · 09/07/2021 21:26

@DeRigueurMortis

Wow!! Excellent post 👏👏👏

DeRigueurMortis · 09/07/2021 21:27

[quote Waitwhat23]@derigueurmortis brilliant post. 👏[/quote]

Thank you.

I feel very cross.

I simply can't comprehend why so many women can't see what's being stolen from them.

It's not "just" about changing rooms.

It's about the reality of life as a woman.

If that word ceases to be exclusive to those with XX chromosomes then you erase what it means to be female.

People should think about the consequences of that.

ForeverFloating · 09/07/2021 21:28

The predators will ignore a sign on the door line doesn’t wash with me. Biological men don’t even need to actually attack women to make them feel violated, the mere existence of a male in a female space is uncomfortable enough for many women, never mind if they are leering, have an erection or otherwise make make girls and women feel self conscious, they shouldn’t be there!

CouldIhaveaword · 09/07/2021 21:41

'The hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear in the morning,' said Caitlin Jenner.

No, it really isn't, but Jenner wouldn't have a clue about the reality of being a woman growing up and living in normal society. It just makes a mockery of the female struggle for equality.

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2021 21:42

DeRigueur

Aye.

DeRigueurMortis · 09/07/2021 21:46

@ArabellaScott

DeRigueur

Aye.

Aye indeed 👍
AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 09/07/2021 21:48

If you scroll about 25% down, you can see why women should have female only spaces.

Even though toilets and changing rooms are the very thin end of the wedge in terms of female spaces being encroached, there are still huge problems in forcing women and girls share these spaces with biological males.

Please don’t click this link if you may be triggered by males masturbating in female spaces with girls and women in the background.

However, I feel it’s important for this to be seen by people who say women are not at risk or losing any rights by having to share spaces with males…

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.md/2021.05.08-115210/twitter.com/heke_nig/status/1383631390701281286" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.md/2021.05.08-115210/twitter.com/heke_nig/status/1383631390701281286

MaudTheInvincible · 09/07/2021 21:50

I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of agreement with DeRigueurMortis.

elgreco · 09/07/2021 21:55

DeRigeuerMortis said it better than I could.

Ooodlesofboodles · 09/07/2021 21:56

When deciding what to wear in the morning it takes me 30 seconds to assess what is both appropriate for my day and clean. That is the headspace it gets.
Should I have more children, do I want to be pregnant again, what if I have another miscarriage, am I perimenopausal, will I be safe walking to this place on my own, is the man following me a threat, etc etc. All of these major concerns that I do give a lot of thought to are rooted in biology. My female biology. Caitlyn has no idea.

Thewinterofdiscontent · 09/07/2021 21:56

But I know many people who can pass for male/female (get called him/her on a regular basis) and they’re not transgender but if they wanted to they could easily go into a same sex changing room and no one would question it. I’m not sure how having a mixed sex space makes it any more dangerous as this could happen in same sexed rooms.

Again it’s about looks. it’s about biology.
It’s why toilets/prisons/ clanging rooms are Men or Women and aren’t “Men and butch looking women” or “Women and men who wear bras”.
It’s separated by biological sex not gender.
“It” does happen to women all the time in mixed spaces. 93% of violent crime is men. Not all men but if it’s going to happen , chances are it’s a biological man causing it with gender being irrelevant.

DeRigueurMortis · 09/07/2021 21:58

Thank you.

I don't mind being @ by the way (I know some posters do) but I actually prefer to keep track of the responses to my posts.

On that basis @illuminatethis would you care to respond to my post?

chickenyhead · 09/07/2021 22:05

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

I would challenge that to say some transmen can also get pregnant.

That's because they are biologically women.

So, they wish to live their lives as men, and be publicly accepted as men, yet when it suits them, they also wish to do something that is so intrinsically feminine like gestating and birthing a child.

And yet we are supposed to still see them and refer to them as men because they say so Hmm.

I feel a bit thick when things like this are put to me and I feel like my replies are a bit trite and possibly shallow.

I have lurked here a long time, but some things go over my head. Sorry.

I wonder if there are any good books or resources that you could point me to on the philosophy. I have put bits together but don't feel I see the full picture.

I don't want to discuss it on this thread as it has calmed down a bit and it is potential fodder. Is it possible for you or one of the others to pm me with some?

(It's OK to say no, no need to be kind)

OlympicProcrastinator · 09/07/2021 22:08

If we make the word ‘woman’ meaningless we cannot name our oppression based on our biology.
Throughout history and geography men have known exactly who to deny the vote to, who to deny access to safe abortions to, who to marry off as a child, on whom to perform fgm, who to rape, who to deny the right to own property, drive, walk alone, dress as they wish etc etc. Who are these group of people? WOMEN not “people who menstrate” or whether. Fuck that. If you can’t name it we can’t call it out.

Why is it you can’t see the glaring mysoginy? Ask yourself why men are not called prostate havers? It’s only WOMEN who are losing our name.

All of a sudden, just when we are finally getting somewhere it’s oh so difficult to tell who is a woman? It’s bullshit and I’m not having it.

DeRigueurMortis · 09/07/2021 22:08

@chickenyhead

You might want to start here:

Break it down for me? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?msgid=74976974#74976974

DeRigueurMortis · 09/07/2021 22:10

@OlympicProcrastinator

If we make the word ‘woman’ meaningless we cannot name our oppression based on our biology. Throughout history and geography men have known exactly who to deny the vote to, who to deny access to safe abortions to, who to marry off as a child, on whom to perform fgm, who to rape, who to deny the right to own property, drive, walk alone, dress as they wish etc etc. Who are these group of people? WOMEN not “people who menstrate” or whether. Fuck that. If you can’t name it we can’t call it out.

Why is it you can’t see the glaring mysoginy? Ask yourself why men are not called prostate havers? It’s only WOMEN who are losing our name.

All of a sudden, just when we are finally getting somewhere it’s oh so difficult to tell who is a woman? It’s bullshit and I’m not having it.

👏👏👏

OlympicProcrastinator · 09/07/2021 22:11

Please read TRANS by HELEN JOYCE op and anyone else who truly wants to learn why so many of us are saying NO.

DeRigueurMortis · 09/07/2021 22:12

@OlympicProcrastinator

If we make the word ‘woman’ meaningless we cannot name our oppression based on our biology. Throughout history and geography men have known exactly who to deny the vote to, who to deny access to safe abortions to, who to marry off as a child, on whom to perform fgm, who to rape, who to deny the right to own property, drive, walk alone, dress as they wish etc etc. Who are these group of people? WOMEN not “people who menstrate” or whether. Fuck that. If you can’t name it we can’t call it out.

Why is it you can’t see the glaring mysoginy? Ask yourself why men are not called prostate havers? It’s only WOMEN who are losing our name.

All of a sudden, just when we are finally getting somewhere it’s oh so difficult to tell who is a woman? It’s bullshit and I’m not having it.

I note we used the same phase Smile

#ImNotHavingIt 🤣

chickenyhead · 09/07/2021 22:12

[quote DeRigueurMortis]@chickenyhead

You might want to start here:

Break it down for me? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?msgid=74976974#74976974[/quote]
Thank you, I will be gone for a while. I am also reading the link datsun sent me yesterday, which was a revelation.