to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

@HennyK

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person?

It doesn't offend me per se. I would correct someone if they ever called me a chest feeder or the like.

But I do find it utterly ridiculous. Women get pregnant. Just women.

And it worries me to that if larger official bodies like the NHS are buying into (or more likely bowing down to under pressure) this crap then it won't be too longer before real issues like the ones on this thread come into serious play, and those I really do care about.

I would challenge that to say some transmen can also get pregnant.

Also hate the word real before woman.

The root of the problem is that women are disadvantaged on a level playing field with men by biology.

Pregnancy. Potential pregnancy. Muscle mass. Skeletal mass. Lung capacity. Height. Weight. On average a man and a woman with identical lifestyle will have completely different bodies and strength and endurance. Obviously.

Women as a sex class can be impregnated and go through menopause and those born male can't. Women are disadvantaged by this. Trans women are disadvantaged by social prejudice - its different. Not somehow superior or inferior, different.

Racism isn't the same as sexism. Both exist and need addressing but nobody claims they are identical. Women of colour experience both but that doesn't mean racism and sexism make men of colour women. They're different but equally bad and women of colour get a double whammy, which is unacceptable. Homophobia is also seperate and equally unacceptable.Gay men aren't discriminated against because they love men vut because they are gay men. Gay women aren't discriminated against because they love women vut because they are gay, and that is unacceptable. Trans women are discriminated against because they are tran women and that is an unacceptable social prejudice. It doesn't make them women, it makes them a separate, discriminated against group who deserve their own protection but don't deserve women's protection any more than straight white women deserve protection or spaces for gay men, or black men or women, or lesbians or trans people, or than any adult deserves access to facilities for children.

The only thing all women have in common is biology and the fact we are vulnerable sue to being on average weaker physically than men with identical lifestyles, and at risk of pregnancy or judged as being likely to become pregnant and therefore unemployable/ less attractive employees during our fertile years.

@DocDog

If someone has a penis they should not be in a female only space such as a woman's toilet or changing room.

Think it's sums it up really. People with penis's, no matter how they identify are still men and shouldn't be in women's spaces.

@cricketmum84 that must be very difficult for you and your daughter
What are your thoughts on what could be done to safeguard both women and transgender people?

There are women being attacked and raped in prisons by sex offenders who then transitioned.

In some countries excelling in sport is the only way to get scolarships and a university education. Male born people are taking female scholarships removing educational opportunities from female born people

How about we stop, work out what spaces can be shared and how, and where a third space is needed instead of bulldozing over everyone and then acting shocked when people with half erect penises are exposing them to prepubesent girls and suddenly thats supposed to be okay

I havent seen many, if any, gender critical women who wouldnt be open to discussion around how to achieve the above. Its shouty vocal trans people who shout no debate (as opposed to many of the non shouty trans people who actually share the more cautious approach)

Absolutely if a man wants to expose himself to a child he will fibd a way, if he wants to assault a woman he will find a way. But car thieves find a way around locked door, but the police dont advise you leave the doors open and give up. Some safeguarding is still a necessity even if it is an inconvenience and might need a modicum of sitting down, shutting up and actually hearing womens concerns (you know those things some men find hard to do...)

@Toomanyradishes

There are women being attacked and raped in prisons by sex offenders who then transitioned.

In some countries excelling in sport is the only way to get scolarships and a university education. Male born people are taking female scholarships removing educational opportunities from female born people

How about we stop, work out what spaces can be shared and how, and where a third space is needed instead of bulldozing over everyone and then acting shocked when people with half erect penises are exposing them to prepubesent girls and suddenly thats supposed to be okay

I havent seen many, if any, gender critical women who wouldnt be open to discussion around how to achieve the above. Its shouty vocal trans people who shout no debate (as opposed to many of the non shouty trans people who actually share the more cautious approach)

Absolutely if a man wants to expose himself to a child he will fibd a way, if he wants to assault a woman he will find a way. But car thieves find a way around locked door, but the police dont advise you leave the doors open and give up. Some safeguarding is still a necessity even if it is an inconvenience and might need a modicum of sitting down, shutting up and actually hearing womens concerns (you know those things some men find hard to do...)

Well said

Politicians like Sturgeon in Scotland are not listening, she is only listening to Stonewall, Mhari Black and the man who presents as a woman CEO of Rape Crisis Edinburgh.

Also hate the word real before woman

Okay, I'll change real to biological woman, it means the same thing anyway. Only females are women.

I would challenge that to say some transmen can also get pregnant

Transmen are female.

Woman just means adult female.

I would challenge that to say some transmen can also get pregnant.

That's because they are biologically women.

So, they wish to live their lives as men, and be publicly accepted as men, yet when it suits them, they also wish to do something that is so intrinsically feminine like gestating and birthing a child.

And yet we are supposed to still see them and refer to them as men because they say so .

Because trans women are men. And I don't want men in women's space. That's why. It's very simple.

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

I would challenge that to say some transmen can also get pregnant.

That's because they are biologically women.

So, they wish to live their lives as men, and be publicly accepted as men, yet when it suits them, they also wish to do something that is so intrinsically feminine like gestating and birthing a child.

And yet we are supposed to still see them and refer to them as men because they say so .

No they are transmen

If you choose to get pregnant, you are a woman - if you were a trans man, you aren’t any more!

What is it to be a woman?

I don't wake up thinking I feel like a woman today.

I'm just me.

That said I've lived a life that's been defined by my sex.

I wasn't seriously sexually assaulted at 17 by a man because of my gender identity. I was deliberately targeted because of my sex.

I couldn't "opt out" and not feel like a woman on the last day of my Uni finals because I had the period from hell and spent 3 hours with blood stained jeans after trying to answer questions with severe cramps.

I did succeed in my career in a male dominated industry only to find I was still expected to "take notes" and "play hostess's" even when more junior employees (men) were present.

I gave birth and suffered serious tearing which a male doctor thought "insignificant". Having insisted on being examined by a female doctor I was referred for surgery.

I had my coil replaced with no anaesthetic and passed out screaming in pain as the old one was removed only to come round and find a new one had been inserted (that I would not have consented to) and then bled for 3 weeks.

I've spent thousands of pounds over the years on sanitary protection and pain relief.

Going through peri right now and I've had to fight tooth and nail with my male GP to get HRT. Apparently I'm expected to deal with night sweats that mean I average 4 hours sleep and have to be in the spare bedroom so I don't disturb DH as well as myself.

I don't feel like a woman.

I am one.

No trans woman can ever have these experiences.

They have a notion, a concept about being female is that is mostly rooted in the most inconsequential aspects of women's lives such a lipstick and clothing.

I, like most women I think, spend relatively little mental energy on such matters in comparison to how much I expend on being safe and looking after/worrying about my health in relation specifically to my female anatomy (checking for breast lumps, attending smear tests etc).

Yet these experiences are apparently nothing.

Because men can be women.

They can take away the very word and definition of what a female is.

That's the biggest fucking steal in history and I'm not having it.

@Jux I'm afraid they are not stackable. They are both from outer space and they take up a lot of space. But they are very polite and have a track record of 0 vawg.

But sex and gender are separate so I disagree

They are transmen or biological women. That's my opinion. If you disagree that's your call.

Real woman suggests there is a fake woman. I don't like it. If you do that's your call.

@derigueurmortis brilliant post. 👏

I'm also just a beginner with this and still doing a lot of reading.

For me it's most apparent in the world of competitive sports. I have always seen myself as very liberal and will defend a persons right to identify as whatever gender they like, be it man or woman, for as long a I live, that won't change. Where I have a problem initially is transwomen in competitive sports. I do not feel it is fair for transwomen to be competing in the female category against women when they have a clear physical advantage. No matter what the governing bodies say about testosterone levels (have to be under a certain amount etc to compete) - if you have been through puberty as a biological male you will always have that physical advantage of more muscle mass, bone structure and physical strength compared to a biological woman, regardless of how much testosterone is in your body as of now.

I recently found out about the case of Fallon Foxx, a now retired transwoman UFC fighter. In her last fight against Tamikka Brents, the fight lasted 2 minutes and she fractured the orbital bone in her skull and she had to have her head stapled 7 times. She wasn't even told that she was fighting someone that was born a man. That is not ok. That is women's safe spaces being breached. I am outraged that this was allowed to happen and is still happening.

Not sure what is currently for me or not, but imho:

Men by birth can't be women, they can be transwomen.

Women by birth can't be men, they can be transmen.

Transwomen and women are separate groups who deserve separate spaces.

Women are discriminated against because of biology, not Identity.

A woman who is about to get raped or a girl about to become a victim of fgm or a woman interviewee about to be discriminated against on the basis she might take maternity leave isn't a woman because she has a feeling she is, or wants to dtess pr present or behave a certain way in accordance with a set of stereotypes - it's all about her biology, which she can't identify into or out of.

Its not a competition with other minorities, simply specific and non transferable.

Many paedophiles who currently don't have an easy opportunity to see children naked are likely to be keen to do so when there is no risk whatever to them - all they have to do is walk into a women's changing room at the swimming pool, and no-one can do anything about it. That may then escalate into something worse.
And mothers won't want to frighten their young children. Seeing naked men and being seen by those men may become the norm. Where will that lead?

@chickenyhead

But sex and gender are separate so I disagree

They are transmen or biological women. That's my opinion. If you disagree that's your call.

Real woman suggests there is a fake woman. I don't like it. If you do that's your call.

Transmen are biological women. That is fact, not opinon.

@chickenyhead - what do you mean transmen or biological women?! I think you mean and. Btw, I thought, legally, you had to agree to live permanently in your acquired gender to legally change gender. In what way, shape or form can you claim to be living as a man if you are pregnant?

@DeRigueurMortis

What is it to be a woman?

I don't wake up thinking I feel like a woman today.

I'm just me.

That said I've lived a life that's been defined by my sex.

I wasn't seriously sexually assaulted at 17 by a man because of my gender identity. I was deliberately targeted because of my sex.

I couldn't "opt out" and not feel like a woman on the last day of my Uni finals because I had the period from hell and spent 3 hours with blood stained jeans after trying to answer questions with severe cramps.

I did succeed in my career in a male dominated industry only to find I was still expected to "take notes" and "play hostess's" even when more junior employees (men) were present.

I gave birth and suffered serious tearing which a male doctor thought "insignificant". Having insisted on being examined by a female doctor I was referred for surgery.

I had my coil replaced with no anaesthetic and passed out screaming in pain as the old one was removed only to come round and find a new one had been inserted (that I would not have consented to) and then bled for 3 weeks.

I've spent thousands of pounds over the years on sanitary protection and pain relief.

Going through peri right now and I've had to fight tooth and nail with my male GP to get HRT. Apparently I'm expected to deal with night sweats that mean I average 4 hours sleep and have to be in the spare bedroom so I don't disturb DH as well as myself.

I don't feel like a woman.

I am one.

No trans woman can ever have these experiences.

They have a notion, a concept about being female is that is mostly rooted in the most inconsequential aspects of women's lives such a lipstick and clothing.

I, like most women I think, spend relatively little mental energy on such matters in comparison to how much I expend on being safe and looking after/worrying about my health in relation specifically to my female anatomy (checking for breast lumps, attending smear tests etc).

Yet these experiences are apparently nothing.

Because men can be women.

They can take away the very word and definition of what a female is.

That's the biggest fucking steal in history and I'm not having it.

👏👏👏👏

Did Tamikka Brents sue? She should have.