to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

@honeyytoast

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not. However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

What is a non bio woman

I think you're right in that a predatory man could go into the women's loos anyway. But if it's a women only, safe space, its reasonable that a woman could complain and have it taken seriously.

However, if anybody can identify as a woman, regardless, all that predatory man needs to do is say they are a woman, and then the woman who wishes to complain has it turned around on them and is accused of a hate crime.

Also just want to say - I don't have answers for everything and don't necessarily agree with everything, eg prisons and refuges, I don't have a fully formed opinion of these things which is why I'm interested to hear other people's

@EdgeOfACoin

OP, what are your thoughts on Katie Dolotowski, Jessica Yaniv and Karen White?

Oh, and Madilyn Harks in Canada and Barbie Kardashian in Ireland?

Any reason why women may need to be protected from them, at all?

What is it about a transwoman that makes them a woman, and how can this be determined objectively?

Wearing ladies clothes and lots of make up from what I've seen on Twitter.

Another problem is men 'becoming' women legally. This has all sorts of implications for medical and other statistics on which governments make decisions. For example, medical outcomes are different between a 'natal' woman and a transwoman who spent half their life as a man.

I am also concerned about the safety and dignity of girls and women in sport. We have women's sport for a very simple reason: to compete with their female-bodied peers on a more equal basis. A male-bodied peer is not an equal, even if their testosterone is below the legal limit.

Have you seen what’s going on in women’s prisons at the moment, OP?
Or women’s sports?
Or Girlguiding?

Would you be happy with your daughter losing her place in a sports team to a stronger, faster boy who identifies as a girl?
Are you happy to give up protected female places on company boards to men who identify as female? For male bodied people to win ‘women of the year’ awards?
Does it bother you that the NHS call you a chest feeder and that companies like the Body Shop call you a menstruator, because the word ‘woman’ supposedly offends and excludes now?
Does it concern you that lesbians are being called transphobic for not wanting to have sexual relationships with people with penises?
Or that children and young people who don’t conform to stereotypes are told that it could be because they were ‘born in the wrong body’?

This IS a women’s rights issue. It’s a safeguarding issue. And yes, it is about men using their strength, advantages and privilege, and some men using violence against women. How they identify doesn’t matter.

Women's rights are SEX BASED
SEX is a protected characteristic

making everything about 'gender' is overriding SEX - and that's important to stop

Women have the right to safe spaces - men are a threat to women

Men don;t stop being a threat to women because they wear a dress or lippy

Trans women are not women - they are men who identify as women

Women who have experienced sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse at the hands of men deserve to be in spaces with no men to recover - the have the absolute right to counselling, medical examinations and support from biological women - not men

Allowing men to say they are women makes a mockery of our sex based rights and protections - see women only short lists, women's sport, equal pay, statistics (read Invisible Women!) - sex matters.

Also same SEX attraction is a real thing - lesbians and gay men are same SEX attracted not same 'gender' - ergo it's not transphobic to refuse to date or sleep with some one of the opposite sex however they dress!

I could go on - loving the wide eyed innocence

"Oh you don't need that protection, it's so unlikely to happen to you."

Spoken to women about fucking sexual assault by men.

How do you reason with people like this? Which brain cell do you need to target?

What are you smoking? And why aren't you sharing?

Google Karen White Long story short

Fully intact "transgender" sex offender placed in a womens prison attacks women in womens prison using penis

Yes its possible for women to attack each other in prison but why would you lock a rapist up with their victim of choice and not believe the new victims 🤔

This thread is unlikely to stay here and will probably be moved.
You've half answered your own question OP. The problem is with men invading women's spaces. Why is that a problem? You must have your ears and eyes shut very tight indeed if you can't think of a single reason.
Of course trans people are real. Of course everyone deserves to be safe and have rights
But some rights are incongruent. Some clash. To think otherwise is ill informed.
Removing simple safeguards because men are going to rape and kill women anyway is a beyond bonkers argument. Let's do away with safety belts, good standards and medicines as well shall we? Accidents will happen eh, so what's the point in doing anything to reduce risk?

@Rapskallion

Bloody well said. You gave me chills

@MotionActivatedDog I don't think it's all about toilets and changing rooms, these issues just come up a LOT in discussions so seemed a good entry point

I think if someone looks like a woman and uses the woman's toilets or a cubicle in a woman's changing room then I have no problem with it. If someone has a penis and is walking around naked in a women's open changing room then that is completely unacceptable IMO.

I think the big issue for me comes down to a proportion of transgender women thinking they are women, ie exactly the same as someone who was born female. To me it's fine to be transgender but please don't think you can change sex or ever fully understand what it means to be female. I also find that transgender women often seem to think more like men to me which creates a problem in joining women only groups. I find transgender men don't seem to try to push themselves into men only spaces in the same way. Why is that?

also 'gender' is a social construct and 'gender politics' is based on toxic and outdate notions of male and female - not something we should be rushing to embrace

Why is it that historically we've never had a problem working out who to send to war, who to deny a vote or education, or indeed who to seek out on Pornhub, and now a lot of intact male people want to claim the word "woman", it's suddenly a difficult and complex concept?

I joined a lesbian and bi online women’s group this lunchtime. Three out of eight of us there were born men. Do these people share the same experience as me?

as straight men attracted to women I highly doubt it Wendy

@illuminatethis

Sorry (figured out how to name change!) but I'd really like people to explain WHY you see these things are problems?

Would you like your daughter to be looked after on brownie camp by an 18 year old male born person who claims to be female and who is sleeping in the same room as them?

But what is the issue here? Do you think this man is pretending to be trans so he can get access to young girls? Do you think the nature of being a trans perseon makes someone a pervert who shouldn't be around children? Would love to know more about your issue with it

the erasure of language pertaining to being female in medical care, for example

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person?

Not trying to be argumentative or say you're wrong just would love you to expand so I can understand

In your first example, the issue for me would be with a man that I don't know well being allowed to sleep in a room with my daughter. It has absolutely nothing to do with being trans or not, and absolutely everything to do with the fact that violence against women is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. Not all men, obviously, but as a class, men are more of a threat to women than women are to women.

*Oh you don't need that protection, it's so unlikely to happen to you."

Spoken to women about fucking sexual assault by men.*

@DrSbaitso I never said it wasn't likely to happen, I just feel that it wouldn't be removing a protection because I don't think women are offered protection to begin with - there's not protection to remove, unless the door is guarded a door with a 'women only sign' doesn't offer protection

There are loads of good reasons why there should be sex segregated female only spaces. The rights of different people definitely do clash I agree with you @Beamur - so then what do we do? Keep sex segregated spaces and send trans people where?

@DrSbaitso

Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space?

The point is, with self-ID he won't need to. He won't need to do anything at all except say he feels like a woman, and in he goes.

You lot are always saying "would they go to the trouble of pretending to be a woman" without grasping that if Stonewall gets its way, they won't NEED to go to any trouble. There would be literally no protection. And then we hear "oh you don't need it, it'll never happen".

Heard of Karen White?

your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men.

Yes! Well done! You get it! Mazal tov!

But when men are able to enter women's prisons, sports, crime stats and changing rooms just by saying they are women, can you see why we are worried about it?

Can you see that we are worried about our protections being eroded?

And can you see that there are some spaces, eg competitions of speed and strength, where your actual sexed body does matter?

And can you see that, despite the very real existence of transwomen, if we don't retain the word "woman" for actual sexed female humans, we end up in a shower of shite when it comes to making the actual definition for practical purposes?

Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Protecting us from predatory men and enabling us to be defined as a concept (who do you mean here by "women"? Intact men who say they have a feeling?) would be a good way to start...

Thank you Dr for typing that so I don't have to. Beautifully put.

Oh goodness.

Transwomen are transwomen.

Women by sex (a protected characteristic) are women.

Neither is more important than the other, they are separate and equal.

Separate spaces for both is fair.

The real question is why can't men be accepting and tolerant of feminine presenting men in THEIR spaces? Why do ours have to be invaded to appease men (either trans women or traditionally presenting men)

Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him?

No one is claiming a sign is a force field.
What it does do is clearly signal a boundary. Anyone on the wrong side of that boundary faces legal consequences.

Whereas now many people are afraid to tackle men who are in the wrong place in case they identify as women.

OP, I'm sure you are as horrified as we are by the number of male people identifying as women, and their supporters, who told J K Rowling to die in a fire, get raped, and used every sexualised insult they could think of against her. I'm sure you also know which natal sex covers almost every attacker of trams people.

Is there any reason why you chose Mumsnet as the place to cast your pearls?

I mean, like everyone else, it certainly seems that you can identify the women when it suits you...