to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

@suggestionsplease1

The world is changing and the decisions of the future will be made by the generations that have direct experience and knowledge of the people that are often maligned on Mumsnet.

The anti-trans sentiment here comes from people who have little first hand experience of friendship etc with trans, non-binary etc identifying people. It's the typical ingroup-outgroup division and hostility that stems from lack of close contact.

As younger generations who have
grown up in a different environment and have had more direct contact and understanding come through I would expect to see greater awareness, empathy and decision-making that is inclusive.

Oh, sweetheart, there were transgender people back in the seventies and eighties, you know - you haven't invented anything. Just gotten pompous about it.

But hey, women's rights, hardwon... handed as a generous gift to future generations by tough, spirited, altruistic to their sisters, farseeing women of the past, and maintained with gusto and great difficulty... You won't even know what they were until they're gone.

Oh sorry suggestion another question one I've never thought of before.

Currently lots of things which involve nudity, vulnerability or a need for a single sex environment are male/ female.

That is totally binary, isn't it?

If a transman who has not taken any hormones etc or even just others a 'femme' presentation needs to use facilities, their choices are rubbish under the current model.

Use the men's communal changing/ bogs with urinals etc. My feeling is the reaction of any men in there is unpredictable. From sorry love this is the gents to aggression etc. Esp when told no this is the right place I'm a man.

Other option is to use the ladies which would surely be extremely upsetting/ bad for MH etc for a man. They won't be challenged as look female so that helps along with the fact that women are way less likely to say anything/ get aggressive. But for the transman that is a terrible option surely?

Then you have other identities eg agender, non binary, bi gender, genderfuck and according to some trans sites there are scores of IDs.

So why is the binary system not being challenged hard by trans activists? If it is I'd be really interested in learning more.

Why is the focus on the female facilities when it's widely accepted that the main concern about violence etc is male people? Where does that leave transmen? I don't think I've seen that addressed either tbh.

@suggestionsplease1

The world is changing and the decisions of the future will be made by the generations that have direct experience and knowledge of the people that are often maligned on Mumsnet.

The anti-trans sentiment here comes from people who have little first hand experience of friendship etc with trans, non-binary etc identifying people. It's the typical ingroup-outgroup division and hostility that stems from lack of close contact.

As younger generations who have
grown up in a different environment and have had more direct contact and understanding come through I would expect to see greater awareness, empathy and decision-making that is inclusive.

Who do you think is raising that generation?

My children are entitled to have their own safe spaces, however they choose to identify, or based on their sex if they choose not to.

Gender is not exchangeable with sex. They are equal but neither is of more importance.

Transwomen and women fall under different parts of the equality act, because they are not interchangeable. Each deserves to be treated with respect and dignity, but not to trample the rights of the other.

Separate and equal safe spaces are appropriate. Fight for that.

Ah. Children are generally raised by women, often middle aged or heading that way.

Everyone knows they are inconsequential. So not going to have any impact on the brave young people who were raised by them.

@nolongersurprised - I’m not on Twitter, so thankfully avoid much of this crap. But I do look when people take the time to post links. Jeez, that barbed wire baseball bat post is unbelievable.

Again,, maybe because I’m not on other social media, but I haven’t seen anything remotely in that vein of vile posting from women towards the trans community.

Not quite sure how to word this without causing offence or being deleted. Am going to go with that kind of viewpoint, threat insinuation and graphic imagery is not usually employed by those that are born female - by any stretch of the imagination.

[quote Furries]@nolongersurprised - I’m not on Twitter, so thankfully avoid much of this crap. But I do look when people take the time to post links. Jeez, that barbed wire baseball bat post is unbelievable.

Again,, maybe because I’m not on other social media, but I haven’t seen anything remotely in that vein of vile posting from women towards the trans community.

Not quite sure how to word this without causing offence or being deleted. Am going to go with that kind of viewpoint, threat insinuation and graphic imagery is not usually employed by those that are born female - by any stretch of the imagination.[/quote]
Absolutely. And this is where the trans rights movement is kicking themselves up the ass big time, by not denouncing or removing themselves from these kind of TRAs.

Keep digging I say. Nearly all of the supposedly self appointed leaders of this mens sexual rights movement are just as bad. They will never get it. And so, we will all keep saying no.

They ain't, nor ever will be, a part of the sisterhood. It's just impossible. #sexmatters.

@TalkingOutYerArse - abso-bloody-lutely!

I’m currently feeling very thankful that this post has been permitted to stay here, along with the voting results. I hope this enables more people to see that it has been an open, factual and balanced discussion.

Am still disappointed that the OP (in either of their posting names) didn’t come back to engage further. Hopefully they’re busy doing some further reading around the questions they posed.

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men.

Ok. If nobody can define "women", please can you define "men"? What's the difference between a trans-man and a man for example? In our feminism, should we exclude the trans-men that we include atm? Wouldn't that be transphobic? And where is the TMAM movement with vile insults and threats poured onto men who don't agree by trans-men? Conspicuously absent.

And what is the point of the phrase TWAW, if that was true then it would be a tautology and not much to shout about.

So many replies suggesting there should be mixed toilets…does anyone else think this is such a bizarre suggestion because surely the % of the population that is trans is so small why would millions of toilets be made for such a small number of people?

Go to certain buildings at University of Oxford. There are no longer ladies loos. There are men's loos and gender neutral loos. The stench hits you as you walk in the door. There are no longer safe spaces. Plenty of men use then.
I don't go there any more.

Someone with XY chromosomes is likely to be bigger than me, stronger than me, and more aggressive than me. I don't want that hiding behind a dress and makeup and watching my daughter get changed.

I don't want it beating my daughter at sport.

I don't want it on a women's shortlist to increase representation in an election.

Put it this way. If I paint my face brown, am I suddenly BAME? No I fucking am not, because its not the experience I've lived, I haven't suffered that disadvantage.

I don't want that hiding behind a dress and makeup and watching my daughter get changed

A dress and make up isn’t required, self-ID means that if you say you are a woman, then you are.

@nolongersurprised

I don't want that hiding behind a dress and makeup and watching my daughter get changed

A dress and make up isn’t required, self-ID means that if you say you are a woman, then you are.

Or if you're in the female section of a Korean Spa in Los Angeles, no clothes at all. The person was legally allowed to be there, naked, climbing into a jacuzzi with a 9 year old naked girl. Because that person said they were a woman.

I'm kind and inclusive. I also think safeguarding and womens rights matter, to ensure our safety, privacy and diginity. The vast majority of young people I know think the same. So I don't think age has anything to do with it. The most pro trans people I have met are men aged 60 plus. I wonder why!
PS please can someone tell me when my cheque from right wing evangelicals will arrive? I'm a bit short this month.

@suggestionsplease1

The world is changing and the decisions of the future will be made by the generations that have direct experience and knowledge of the people that are often maligned on Mumsnet.

The anti-trans sentiment here comes from people who have little first hand experience of friendship etc with trans, non-binary etc identifying people. It's the typical ingroup-outgroup division and hostility that stems from lack of close contact.

As younger generations who have
grown up in a different environment and have had more direct contact and understanding come through I would expect to see greater awareness, empathy and decision-making that is inclusive.

I thought the old joke was that every new generation thinks it invented sex. Apparently you think it invented trans people? They didn't exist before you did?

I'll tell you what you definitely didn't invent. Women being told to sit down and shut up, and take any cost, because male bodied people want something. And telling them they only feel the way they do about it because they're ignorant and don't know better, or have an unwarranted victim complex. Believe me, you're carrying on a long tradition with that one.

As for the idea that we don't know any trans people, get right out with that one. Plenty of us know trans people. I once shared a class with one, she was lovely. I'm also surrounded by many lovely men. I still understand the need for sex based rights and protections. To say they aren't required when our abusers and exploiters can sure as fuck recognise the difference between the sexes is about as ignorant and unknowing as it gets.

As younger generations who have grown up in a different environment and^ have had more direct contact and understanding come through I would expect to see greater awareness, empathy and decision-making that is inclusive.^

I think you're very naive if you think the younger generations are morally superior to older ones. They aren't.

For instance, there's nothing particularly moral or new about allowing a male supremacist political movement to flourish and stand by while women are abused and persecuted for their beliefs that women's rights should matter, but you tell yourself what you like.

And if that is the "right side of history" I take pride in being on the wrong side.

And what is the point of the phrase TWAW, if that was true then it would be a tautology and not much to shout about.

I think you have just got to the heart of it.

Women's rights are under attack precisely because transwomen aren't women. If they were it wouldn't need saying.

But women's spaces, women's sports, women's crime statistics etc are all being colonised by men who say they are women.

That's women's rights under attack, right there.

This site has returned to a stronger and freer ant-trans sentiment, presumably emboldened by recent court judgements - eg Maya Forstater...there was at least one thread recently with multiple posters gleefully pronouncing that trans women are men. Free speech, legally, have at it - say what you like, morally this is more problematic.

As all the research shows, trans people are incredibly vulnerable, are 300%-600% more likely to have an autism diagnosis than non-trans, often have poor mental health, are at risk of suicide to a far greater degree. The hounding and social rejection they experience in society compounds this- I look at outcomes in educational settings and it is clear that these students are suffering - we see drop outs of trans students at over the 50% mark in many cases. Focus groups and interviews indicate the importance of social support they receive or not, in their ability to complete their course.

(Female students, you'll be pleased to hear, participate in and complete their qualifications at higher levels than males.)

This sets the tone for their lifelong journey in education and the workplace for trans people. The social disadvantage leads on to economic disadvantage and overall poor life outcomes.

So when the anti-trans sentiment starts up, this is the reality of the experiences for these people. The vast, vast majority are acting in good faith, trying to find the best way forward for themselves, and they are shamed and hounded for it.

Pro-women sentiment.

I don't believe it's "immoral" to correctly identify a person's sex. I think it's immoral to force women to share spaces with males when they are vulnerable. I think it's immoral to prevent women from organising politically as a sex class.

In short, I don't believe in your ideology, like most people, suggestionsplease. And as a feminist, I centre women and girls, not vulnerable males, who have their own rights movement.

And what is the point of the phrase TWAW, if that was true then it would be a tautology and not much to shout about.

Indeed.

The vast, vast majority are acting in good faith, trying to find the best way forward for themselves, and they are shamed and hounded for it

I’m sure that’s true, yet some trans Folx are threatening to rape women with a baseball bat covered in barbed wire. Unfortunately, those “choke on my female dick” types that JKR was threatened by also identified as trans. How can women know which transwomen are safe in their female spaces?

It's not anti trans to say that sex is immutable or that girls and women need privacy and dignity away from males.

I don't know how you can look at pictures of Laurel Hubbard and those two young women on the podium and say that women's rights aren't under attack.