to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Because women and girls matter too.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

This was the subject of a recent Judicial Review which resulted in a court admitting that there was a conflict of rights

This however was a significant departure from the usual dismissive attitude and contradicts the assertions of some of the people on this thread.

[NotBadConsidering]

Maybe Mumsnet and those who advertise on here can pay attention to this thread and the poll results, to maximise advertising to people who believe in biology.

[Helleofabore]

Thanks OP! Great thread.

Stay strong women!

[Skybluepinkgiraffe]

Some great links on here. I've learnt so much this weekend.
I'm saddened that the family members I referenced above won't engage with me at all. It feels one sided as I listen to them, and I try my best to be understanding and respectful.
Sadly if I ask a question or make any statements regarding my position, they leave the room, however cautiously I frame it. So there is an uneasy truce.
DH tells me it's because they really have no answer to my logic.
The threads I've read this weekend have certainly helped me firm up my position though, and I have to just hope that sense will prevail.

[Waitwhat23]

boysvswomen.com/#/

This shows quite starkly how athletic teenage boys can beat women's Olympic times/results

[Helleofabore]

And what some very prominent males think of women really. And these quotes are made after transitioning.

twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569?s=21

Like the thread posted by Eresh on this page where we were accused directly of inciting male violence by speaking out against policy that don’t provide for women’s safety.

And finally for those who say it will never happen. Be sure to get to the bottom on this tweet thread.

archive.is/bBshL

Women are saying no! It is time to listen and understand why!

Women are saying NO!

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Sorry if it has been mentioned upthread, but are there any third spaces for transpeople anywhere in the world? I think it has been tried in some prisons?

Generally the approach is to allow trans people to use the space they prefer. In the U.K. there was a trans prison unit for the most dangerous prisoners who were GRC holders (so legally considered female) and the women prisoners were separated from them in terms of sleeping etc but still mixed more generally, which unfortunately led to one of the female prisoners being sexually assaulted by one of these very dangerous males. This was the subject of a recent Judicial Review which resulted in a court admitting that there was a conflict of rights, not coming down on the side of MTF trans rights rather than those of female prisoners.

[Helleofabore]

Adding this to the resource list:

The studies showing transwomen not losing their advantages of male puberty.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

And the recent yougov on toilets.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9735219/amp/YouGov-poll-suggests-just-4-cent-women-support-replacement-gendered-toilets-shared-loos.html

[NotBadConsidering]

@CatsArePeople

allow me a stupid question. How do i tell the difference between a man and a transwoman when they're naked?

Layla Moran claims to be able to see into people’s souls to see if they’re genuine, maybe ask her.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Yes I'd like an answer to that too. I suspect the answer would be something like Laurie Penny's, you shouldn't stare at people's genitals, even if you're a child.

[Skybluepinkgiraffe]

Yes Erishkigalangcleg. I did wonder whether the inconsistencies around #MeToo would make people think, but apparently not.
I have family members who are all shades of LGBT+, and I struggle to have any kind of a conversation with them as they genuinely don't see a problem. I've been told outright that we don't need my brand of feminism any more because women do have equality.
I blame social media algorithms and the fact that most of their trans and gender fluid friends are young and pretty and sweet.
I'm told that the only people they fear are 'old straight white c*s males'

[MareofBeasttown]

I am new to this issue and this thread has been very educative. Sorry if it has been mentioned upthread, but are there any third spaces for transpeople anywhere in the world? I think it has been tried in some prisons?

[CatsArePeople]

allow me a stupid question. How do i tell the difference between a man and a transwoman when they're naked?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Thread about the Wi Spa incident, started by a person trying to discredit the woman's story (this is why the title was edited), and after that was refuted by posters, some TRA posters tried to claim the male violence in the US at the spa protest was the fault of women on Mumsnet and we had "whipped up" right wing men into a frenzy of GC sentiment, presumably unlike equally violent leftists Antifa, who I'm sure were just there to defend righteousness.

Article about WiSpa incident title edited by MNHQ http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4292052-Article-about-WiSpa-incident-title-edited-by-MNHQ

[Waitwhat23]

As this thread is almost full, for the benefit of any lurkers or people who would like to know more about why women are fighting for sex based rights and single sex spaces, I thought I would include these links -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

//www.terfisaslur.com

www.gcacademianetwork.org/

fairplayforwomen.com/

[Helleofabore]

And 86% say no!

Woman are saying NO!

[Helleofabore]

@suggestionsplease1

The world is changing and the decisions of the future will be made by the generations that have direct experience and knowledge of the people that are often maligned on Mumsnet.

The anti-trans sentiment here comes from people who have little first hand experience of friendship etc with trans, non-binary etc identifying people. It's the typical ingroup-outgroup division and hostility that stems from lack of close contact.

As younger generations who have
grown up in a different environment and have had more direct contact and understanding come through I would expect to see greater awareness, empathy and decision-making that is inclusive.

It is foolish to ignore the current situation in France. When decades ago the so called intellectual class, including Foucault by the way - you know Queer theory and his chosen age for sec partners well known, convinced the French government to lower the age of consent for sex. Because they believed children should be able to enjoy sex with adults.

Those child victims were then silenced as some of the perpetrators were now very influential, they were not believed. They only now are speaking out and the women who have also been affected due to how that philosophy underpinned how all sex crimes were treated due to that decision are too.

Please stop and think where rhetoric like your leads. ‘The younger generation’ are actually experiencing very high levels of sexual assault, rape and coercion. Their chances of making sure adequate safety, and this means safe spaces away from any male, becomes diminished. Even at university, where the roles set aside for females to be represented at policy level are being filled with males who recently transitioned. Those males have little knowledge, and maybe even little interest, in knowing female victims of male violence need those spaces.

Teenage females are just now seeing their chances at playing/competing in elite sport contract because males with benefits of male puberty are taking women’s places.

Teenage females are also being told that the awards, roles and programs created to encourage them to achieve despite still being subject to sexist discrimination (and they still do… from birth) may also go to males who have not had that sexist discrimination from birth. And yet, the open general awards, speaking panels, committee positions etc will laud or give opportunity to few, if any of their female friends who transitioned.

They will understand that the depth of sexist discrimination in the world, still recognises sex from birth despite being told by many otherwise. And so, males are just getting another opportunity to be succeed. They will probably pick up on who it was telling them sexist discrimination was based on gender or identity really, not sex.

This is replicated across education opportunities, health care, and every walk of life. It is not just about safety although that is one of the priorities.

No, sorry. It would be a foolish, foolish person to realize in years to come that those ‘young people’ coming through won’t realise the significance of this. Why?

Being sold superficial utopian dreams that don’t reflect the current material reality with millennia deep foundations is not going to be successful.

And those telling you that the ‘all or nothing’ inclusion you seek is not what they need, are also from all age groups. And a growing number of them are the female detransitioners who have the depth of understanding that should be amplified not silenced.

[CatsArePeople]

It's interesting when so many people supported #Metoo.

It feels like a backlash really. Woman, you don't like a man being inappropriate with you? Ok, he identifies as a woman. What do you say now, bigot?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

If your movement won't flourish without dubious propaganda, maybe it's time to look at what your movement is asking for.

[NotBadConsidering]

It went from “this never happens” to “it’s their right to do so” to “this never happened” once everyone saw what actually happened, to cover up how awful it was.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

It's interesting when so many people supported #Metoo. Depressing to see that for many people women's freedom from sexual assault and harassment was all empty virtue signalling, and could be abandoned when a newer, more "worthy" cause comes along.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

And see how quickly we went from "this never happens" to "its their right to do so"?

Yes, exactly.

[CatsArePeople]

I think last weekend's incident should have peaked a lot of people.
A male flashed his junk at women and little girls. Women kicked up the stink. Then antifa cockroaches violently attacked them. Then maga's showed up to fight antifa. Basically men fighting for their right to expose themselves to... children. How nice is that?
And see how quickly we went from "this never happens" to "its their right to do so"?

[funeralq]

It's not anti trans to say that sex is immutable or that girls and women need privacy and dignity away from males.

I don't know how you can look at pictures of Laurel Hubbard and those two young women on the podium and say that women's rights aren't under attack.