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to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?
999

MissPrimaryCrafts · 09/07/2021 15:53

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

OP's posts:
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Am I being unreasonable?

AIBU

You have one vote. All votes are anonymous.

DocDog · 09/07/2021 15:55

If someone has a penis they should not be in a female only space such as a woman's toilet or changing room.

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HotPenguin · 09/07/2021 15:58

Would you like your daughter to be looked after on brownie camp by an 18 year old male born person who claims to be female and who is sleeping in the same room as them? That's more of a problem to me than anything happening in a shop changing room.

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TheBitchOfTheVicar · 09/07/2021 15:59

I'm a lurker and beginner on this, so I'm sure someone more eloquent will be here soon. But I have two things to say.

First, is it about dignity and privacy as much as (more than?) being attacked.

Second, there are more issues than this - the erasure of language pertaining to being female in medical care, for example.

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UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 09/07/2021 15:59

Sports

Women's refuges

Women's prisons

"Someone's hardly likely to" is a bit of a rubbish and naive argument...

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Ghosttile · 09/07/2021 15:59

’then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?’

I’d love to hear your ideas on that

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honeyytoast · 09/07/2021 16:00

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not.
However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

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ScottishNewbie · 09/07/2021 16:01

No problem with post-op trans women using female bathrooms.
As PP said, if you have a penis, you shouldn't be in female bathrooms.

There are MANY MANY MANY reasons women feel vulnerable in bathrooms and changing rooms.
Periods, miscarriage, sexual assault survivors, delicate illnesses.
It's just another example of womens's rights being infringed upon, to make another party happy.

My issue is with men, and experiences that I have had with them mean that I want one space where I can breathe a sigh of relief and not have awkward encounters. If a trans woman goes through the necessary medical procedures then they should be entitled to use female spaces. Not before.
This is a hill I am prepared to die on.

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Whatabouttery · 09/07/2021 16:01

OP, what is a woman?

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Crabbitcrab · 09/07/2021 16:01

What group are you collecting screenshots for?

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TheGumption · 09/07/2021 16:01

Confused surely it's not about believing they exist or not. It's about male bodied people being given the right to enter female only spaces. Whether they see themselves as male, female or whatever. I'm yet to find a reasonable answer as to why that is acceptable. Because apparently transwomen are women even if they have a penis 🤷‍♀️

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Hidie · 09/07/2021 16:02

Of course women's rights are under attack. They always are.

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DrSbaitso · 09/07/2021 16:03

Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space?

The point is, with self-ID he won't need to. He won't need to do anything at all except say he feels like a woman, and in he goes.

You lot are always saying "would they go to the trouble of pretending to be a woman" without grasping that if Stonewall gets its way, they won't NEED to go to any trouble. There would be literally no protection. And then we hear "oh you don't need it, it'll never happen".

Heard of Karen White?

your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men.

Yes! Well done! You get it! Mazal tov!

But when men are able to enter women's prisons, sports, crime stats and changing rooms just by saying they are women, can you see why we are worried about it?

Can you see that we are worried about our protections being eroded?

And can you see that there are some spaces, eg competitions of speed and strength, where your actual sexed body does matter?

And can you see that, despite the very real existence of transwomen, if we don't retain the word "woman" for actual sexed female humans, we end up in a shower of shite when it comes to making the actual definition for practical purposes?

Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Protecting us from predatory men and enabling us to be defined as a concept (who do you mean here by "women"? Intact men who say they have a feeling?) would be a good way to start...

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Whatabouttery · 09/07/2021 16:04

OP, why do you think we have sex segregated spaces in the first place?

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SionnachRua · 09/07/2021 16:04

Completely agree with you, OP.

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illuminatethis · 09/07/2021 16:04

Sorry (figured out how to name change!) but I'd really like people to explain WHY you see these things are problems?

Would you like your daughter to be looked after on brownie camp by an 18 year old male born person who claims to be female and who is sleeping in the same room as them?

But what is the issue here? Do you think this man is pretending to be trans so he can get access to young girls? Do you think the nature of being a trans perseon makes someone a pervert who shouldn't be around children? Would love to know more about your issue with it

the erasure of language pertaining to being female in medical care, for example

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person?

Not trying to be argumentative or say you're wrong just would love you to expand so I can understand

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historygeek · 09/07/2021 16:04

I am secondary school teacher. If I take kids on a school trip do I have to let a boy sleep in the girls' dormitory? I am responsible for those children's safety. I risk my job if I do. I risk my job if I refuse.
At the minute trans rights seem to trump everyone else's rights.

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FreeBritnee · 09/07/2021 16:04

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

I feel like you talked yourself out of your own argument with that paragraph.

Yes our issues are with men, the penised variety, which most transwomen still have. So instead of ‘female only’, we’re really saying ‘no thank you’ to the penis. The push back against that is that we are obsessed with genitalia. Well unfortunately when the penis has been responsible for the rape and assault of millions of women over thousands of years we’re pretty much evolved to be fearful of it when viewed without agreement.

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HunterHearstHelmsley · 09/07/2021 16:05

I honestly wouldn't mind a post op trans women in women only spaces. I do not want penises in those spaces. That's not unreasonable.

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IToldYouIWasFreaky · 09/07/2021 16:05

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Sports

Women's refuges

Women's prisons

"Someone's hardly likely to" is a bit of a rubbish and naive argument...

Agreed.

OP, you seem to be focussing on changing rooms, which is an issue. I believe that studies have shown that incidents of harassment and assaults against women are greater in mixed-sexed changing and toilet facilities, than in single sex.

However, there's far more at stake here than "just" changing rooms and toilets. What do you think of the impact of making refuges and prisons mixed sex? What would be the impact on women's sports? Do you think it's fair and safe to allow male bodied people to compete against women and girls?
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Bitofachinwag · 09/07/2021 16:05

@honeyytoast

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not.
However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

Maybe the "cis" men should change their behaviour instead then?

Not all "cis" men are opportunistic sexual perverts either so using that logic we might as well have mixed sex changing rooms, hospital wards, loos, prison cells etc.
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FreeBritnee · 09/07/2021 16:06

@HunterHearstHelmsley

I honestly wouldn't mind a post op trans women in women only spaces. I do not want penises in those spaces. That's not unreasonable.

I feel exactly the same.
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EdgeOfACoin · 09/07/2021 16:06

OP, what are your thoughts on Katie Dolotowski, Jessica Yaniv and Karen White?

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MotionActivatedDog · 09/07/2021 16:06

Why does everyone think this is all about toilets? Confused is it just wilful ignorance? Because the impact of allowing self ID in terms of access to single sex spaces is far reaching and has been widely discussed. Schools, sports, hospital wards, DV refuges, residential care, girl guides, prisons, funding for STEM programmes, crime statistics, the list just goes on and on.

If you really think this is just about peeing then you haven’t done enough reading and you aren’t ready to ask this question.

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MarkRuffaloCrumble · 09/07/2021 16:07

Clue’s in the name. Female only spaces.

I don’t believe TWAW but they seem to have co-opted the word woman. We’re not giving up female as well.

Female is a biological sex. It means something. (So does woman, but hey it seems we’ve lost that battle).

I’m not “being kind” by letting a penis Person with dysphoria into the changing room with my daughter to make that person feel validated.

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Avocadowoman · 09/07/2021 16:08

Why do we have women's spaces? Would you agree with everything being mixed sex? If that is what you would like, do you accept that there are many reasons that some people may prefer single sex?

What is it about a transwoman that makes them a woman, and how can this be determined objectively?

If it can't be determined objectively, what can prevent a man from saying they are a transwoman if they are not?

Do you think some men would like to abuse this system? Eg:
Rapists going to female prisons
Male criminals saying they are female to be strip searched by female police officers
Male swimmers going to female communal changing areas and stripping off
Male students applying for female only sports scholarships

What is it about men that makes you feel they will act honestly in every situation when they could take advantage if they wanted to?

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