to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

I'm more concerned about cancel culture and the puritanical witch trial of social media. The extremes on both sides unwilling to engage in conversation with the other.

Though Gender is now fluid, everything else is so black and white that I for one am afraid to ask questions for fear of being labeled a Transphobe. How can you "educate yourself" if you're going to get shouted down and experience a pile on of bile.

People can identify as whatever they like but if they dare express an opinion different from the agreed narrative they are screamed at for "not representing the whole community".

I also don't understand how transgender has been grouped with homosexuality when they are not connected.

However I think this is a temporary time in the long history of the world and things will settle down, or there will be a huge backlash. Hopefully the former!

OP what is the difference between a trans woman and a man?

How can you tell the difference?

How legally are single sex places supposed to tell the difference?

How do we ensure we admit 'real transwomen' but keep the fake ones who are really men out?

To me these are the very real problems with your view

And as an aside, statistically there is no difference in offending rates between men and transwomen, so why both keeping any of them out unless we're going to keep them all out?

PP's other very valid points about not wanting penises in single sex spaces, prisons etc are all worth considering too, but for me your initial post doesn't answer the key question: who is a trans woman and who is a man, and how do we tell them apart? Is it on their say so? If so then we're screwed because clearly some men will say they are trans women in order to access single sex spaces.

There was a good post on another thread (or poss a link to twitter) recently which gave links to times men have pretended to be all sorts of other things in order to assault women and children. Bit naive to think they'd never pretend to be trans women for these same aims. And of course there are countless examples where they have.

@illuminatethis

Sorry (figured out how to name change!) but I'd really like people to explain WHY you see these things are problems?

Would you like your daughter to be looked after on brownie camp by an 18 year old male born person who claims to be female and who is sleeping in the same room as them?

But what is the issue here? Do you think this man is pretending to be trans so he can get access to young girls? Do you think the nature of being a trans perseon makes someone a pervert who shouldn't be around children? Would love to know more about your issue with it

the erasure of language pertaining to being female in medical care, for example

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person?

Not trying to be argumentative or say you're wrong just would love you to expand so I can understand

So following your line of argument, there's no need for segregation at all right? A "cis" man should be able to be a Brownies leader and share a tent on trips? You agree?

@Peppallama

The real question is why can't men be accepting and tolerant of feminine presenting men in THEIR spaces? Why do ours have to be invaded to appease men (either trans women or traditionally presenting men)

Exactly

[quote illuminatethis]@MotionActivatedDog I don't think it's all about toilets and changing rooms, these issues just come up a LOT in discussions so seemed a good entry point[/quote]
See they come up a lot for a reason, it’s because making it seem to be just about peeing makes it look like women are overreacting about nothing, a tiny thing, just someone having a pee. It’s deliberate that you are seeing the discussion revolve around peeing so much.

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women.

Are you under the mistaken impression that a man can't possibly genuinely identify as a transwoman and wish to harm or intimidate women? How would you even go about distinguishing between 'real' transwomen and 'pretend transwomen', since all you have to do to count as one is say you are one?

So following your line of argument, there's no need for segregation at all right? A "cis" man should be able to be a Brownies leader and share a tent on trips? You agree?

I’d ask the same question. So, Johnny can say he feels like a woman and we must call him Judy and he can bunk up with the female children on a trip. But my DH can’t? Why is that? And why am I supposed to respect a ‘feeling’ over obvious biological fact?

@Crabbitcrab

What group are you collecting screenshots for?

There was a prominent twitter TRA shouting out for screenshots of MN 'transphobia' only yesterday actually....

However, assuming that the OP is posting in good faith and is going to come back in actually engage in a discussion, I have a few questions:

What is a woman? What is a transwoman?

Why do we have sex segregated spaces in certain situations?

At what objective point does a male who identifies as a woman actually come out of the high risk class of male and go into the low risk class of female? When does that actually happen?

How come my DH, who absolutely isn't a threat to women, isn't allowed in female spaces?

Absolutely the issue is with men.

But with Stonewall et al pushing for 'Self Id', any man can say he is a woman and be allowed to enter woman only places without challenge. It makes gatekeeping impossible.

Then you get girl guides allowing transgirls in which sounds lovely until you realise they will be sharing tents with girls without the informed consent of their parents - so throwing safeguarding out of the window.

Safeguarding is there because you don't know who the predators are. It isn't about saying any one person is a predator, it is saying that men as a class statistically cause harm to women, and anyway women want single sex spaces for privacy and dignity.

Next you could consider the fact that girls or boys who don't follow the rigid stereotypes that are now in fashion are being told they must be 'trans' rather than saying stereotypes are unnecessary and restricting.

I have short hair, like maths, wear trousers and not makeup. But I am a woman because Biology.

If we're just talking about spaces rather than athletics, then yes, my issue is primarily with cis men rather than trans women. The problem here is that trans rights activists have effectively eliminated the difference by insisting that any man who says "I identify as female" must be treated as such and allowed into women-only spaces. If there were more reasonable criteria for this access, I wouldn't be so against it. To my mind, reasonable criteria would include hormone therapy and surgical modifications, not just a psychologist's note saying this person told them they identify as female.

@Rapskallion

So following your line of argument, there's no need for segregation at all right? A "cis" man should be able to be a Brownies leader and share a tent on trips? You agree?

I’d ask the same question. So, Johnny can say he feels like a woman and we must call him Judy and he can bunk up with the female children on a trip. But my DH can’t? Why is that? And why am I supposed to respect a ‘feeling’ over obvious biological fact?

Absolutely! And I'm yet to get a rational response to this question. I've asked on a few threads and never had a reply. You just get shouted down.

Oh, it’s a post a goady op and disappear job.

Danielle says they are a woman so they are - welcome to self ID. I await your explanation as to how we tell the TW Danielle Muscato from a man

I think the best solution to toilets, changing rooms etc is to have separate and unisex rooms/cubicles. A former workplace had a row of toilet rooms a bit like disabled toilets but not if that makes sense. Each totally enclosed, lockable and private with sink, bin and a vending machine. This addressed the issue with no fuss. I do also think some people are a bit paranoid about males. I understand the need for caution but for example I had someone on here a while ago say that they would not be comfortable with their junior school age DD visiting my younger DS at home because my (then) 21 year old DS lives here too. I can understand them not wanting him to take part in close up childcare but labelling him as some sort of potential pervert just for existing in his own home is OTT.

This is a very interesting thread @MissPrimaryCrafts
Thank you for starting it

Loads of these today, almost like women are being targeted for a specific reason.🥱

@honeyytoast

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not. However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

So, the answer to TW not being hassled by cis men is to dismantle female safe spaces and use cis women as a barrier against male violence?

I am aware of the issues other than facilities but that is not the point I was addressing with my last post.

@PurpleDaisies actually I'm here replying to comments and being involved in the discussion? But thanks for your helpful contribution

@honeyytoast

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not. However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim that "all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts" - have you got any evidence for this?

Crikey @Kit19
More people should know about this!

@honeyytoast

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not. However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

It’s nothing to do with actual trans women.

It’s those guising as a trans women, but don’t identify as one at all, but pretend they do, to get access to certain things, such as school girls bedroom on a trip, changing rooms.

@Kit19

Danielle says they are a woman so they are - welcome to self ID. I await your explanation as to how we tell the TW Danielle Muscato from a man

I'd love to hear his definition of what a woman is.

Or separate safe spaces which would be reasonable

illuminate would you be happy for your teenage daughter to sleep in a mixed sex dormitory on a Brownies camp?

If so then fine, that's your choice ignoring your daughter's opinion for a minute. But presumably you can understand and appreciate why others migjt not be keen for an 18 year old man to sleep in a room full of 13-16 year old girls.

Now the reason people migjt not want a man sleeping with a roomful of teenage girls doea not disappear when that man becomes a trans women, statistically.

Every statistical risk of assault is still exactly the same, some sources even cite it as higher, if the man is replaced by a trans woman.

So you can see why many women have an issue with this.

To be honest, and I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I find it utterly baffling that anyone could not have a problem with this, and I'd love to hear your reasoning.

All I can fathom is that either you haven't heard / don't believe the risk is the same, or you trust your daughter to be able to defend herself against any attack.