to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

You are right males are the danger to females, not all males but quite a few of them so we need safe spaces away from them. Unfortunately trans women are male so also need to stay out of female spaces because some of them not all are a danger to females.

I think the Fair Play for Women website answers most of the OP's points.

The main issue I have with 'identifying' and being allowed to be accepted for who you say you are is that it really only seems to work one way. Society knows who men and women are. Society in general does not treat women as well as men.

I cannot become a man in any meaningful way so that society treats me as a man. I could ask people to call me a man but I don't get stronger or taller, or the benefit of a payrise, just by saying that.

A man could identify as a woman, and get the 'benefits' of being a man and a woman at the same time. Everyone presumes (knows) he is a man. Society has designed things for him. Medicine treats him as the default. Etc Etc. But whenever he wants, he can turn up to a female swim session, get undressed in front of women just because he says he is a woman, then get dressed, and walk out the door as a man again.

That is madness.

I think this is really unfair. My mother is over 60 and thinks like OP.

I wasn't talking about your mother. The OP asked what do you think, and I told her.

[quote illuminatethis]@PurpleDaisies actually I'm here replying to comments and being involved in the discussion? But thanks for your helpful contribution[/quote]
If you use the original username then your answers are highlighted in green and there is the option to see them all.

As all your replies are under a different user name, they don't stand out and it looks like you posted once and disappeared. Go back to original user name please?

@illuminatethis

*Oh you don't need that protection, it's so unlikely to happen to you."

Spoken to women about fucking sexual assault by men.*

@DrSbaitso I never said it wasn't likely to happen, I just feel that it wouldn't be removing a protection because I don't think women are offered protection to begin with - there's not protection to remove, unless the door is guarded a door with a 'women only sign' doesn't offer protection

There are loads of good reasons why there should be sex segregated female only spaces. The rights of different people definitely do clash I agree with you @Beamur - so then what do we do? Keep sex segregated spaces and send trans people where?

@illuminatethis @MissPrimaryCrafts (OP??)

Are you really this naive?

The long term study done in Sweden found that transwomen commit crime in the same way as men and at the same rate. So if women need a single sex space to keep them safe from biological males it needs to exclude ALL biological males. Otherwise you are prioritiing the hurt feelings of a subset of men over the actual safety of women and girls.

Sorry (figured out how to name change!)

What's the point of that, as your usual name is at the start of this thread?

It just means that we can't see all posts from you, in one place.
Clever. :-(

There are hundreds of threads written eloquently on why this is a problem. This faux naive ‘but can somebody please explain to me politely why you’re all so mean’ is embarrassing.

Are you aware that many trans people are also concerned about this? Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley, Katrina Harrison, Rose of Dawn, Buck Scott Newgent, Buck Angel have all voiced their support of women's rights.

Are you aware that the majority of people pushing the aggressive Trans Rights Activist agenda are actually not trans at all?
I wonder why that is, and why they think they have the right to patronise and speak over trans people?

It's not transwomen I have the issue with; it's the predatory men who will inevitably follow them through all the open doors into women's single-sex spaces and who will be immune from challenge.

Do you see, OP? Once, if a man followed a little girl into the toilets, there's a high chance someone would spot him and shout,

"Oi! Mate! Not in there you don't!"

But once anyone can claim they feel like a woman on the inside, nobody will dare challenge anybody any more, and more little girls will be assaulted or raped in spaces originally designated for their safety.

Yes it can happen now, despite everyone's best attempts. Yes it will happen more if people can identify themselves into any single-sex space. Don't pretend it won't happen because it already has.

The real question is, how many little girls and grown women are judged to be acceptable expendable collateral damage in the rush to give transwomen the rights they want and their allies are demanding?

So what's your number, OP? In a population approaching 65 million in the UK, how many raped little girls are you prepared to sweep under the carpet in the name of inclusion and kindness?

For reference, my number is 0, but please don't let that influence you. Do take a moment to imagine that one of them is your child, or a child you care about before you come up with your number.

[quote illuminatethis]@PurpleDaisies actually I'm here replying to comments and being involved in the discussion? But thanks for your helpful contribution[/quote]
It is not easy to see you because of your name change.

It would be helpful to go back to your original name on this thread.

Embarrassing, but useful, @MilesOfSand

@unwuthering

I think this is really unfair. My mother is over 60 and thinks like OP.

I wasn't talking about your mother. The OP asked what do you think, and I told her.

You made an assumption based on OP's thoughts. I merely pointed out they are not exclusive to young people.

One of the things I found baffling about all this is the duel argument 'Transwomen(men) don't pose an risk to women ' V 'Transwomen can't use men's spaces as men are a danger to trans women'

you can;t have it both ways surely

@MissPrimaryCrafts @illuminatethis

Are your trans women friends post op? Do they live as women full time?

I see the OP hasn't come back to the thread.

Kind of like throwing a grenade in to a room and walking off.

Great fodder for twitter though..

I never said it wasn't likely to happen, I just feel that it wouldn't be removing a protection because I don't think women are offered protection to begin with - there's not protection to remove, unless the door is guarded a door with a 'women only sign' doesn't offer protection.

Guarded like in a prison? Where women are now being locked in cells with male rapists?

Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

I don’t know. But what I do know is that predatory men have been known to seek out jobs which allow them to access to victims - becoming teachers/other school employees, priests, and Scout leaders, for example.

In that light, it doesn’t seem like such a ridiculous stretch to me that a man could pretend to be a women to get access to victims.

@DocDog

If someone has a penis they should not be in a female only space such as a woman's toilet or changing room.

This.

Why is it so hard to understand?

I totally agree with you.
I believe this 'debate' has been framed in a way (are transwomen women?) that is really unhelpful and leads to confrontation between different groups with their own interest.
A lot of it is dominated by hidden religious interests. Many of those behind this are scandalized about 'mixed' areas in many environments and are using the trans issue to pursue their agendas of keeping segregated sex spaces.
I have nothing about that agenda, but it should not be disguised with one theme only. It is not a coincidence that this debate is particularly heated in the UK were Victorian attitudes to things such as nudity are very pronounced.
The way this has been framed there is no way it is going to find solutions that protect the rights of transpeople in any reasonable way. Women's rights are under attack only if we continue this sterile discussion instead of finding a better way of listening and addressing the real life issues at stake.

@honeyytoast

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not. However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

I think it’s really important to be wise as to the ideology you’re defending, because what you’ve just said would be transphobic.

If you accept, as you very reasonably do, that sex is central to the oppression of women, then women cannot have equality unless they have some protections based on sex. If we cannot reserve certain protections for women based on sex then we cannot address the root cause of women’s oppression.

I also accept the need to be inclusive and IMO some things can be based on gender without unduly harming “bio women”, such as toilets (I know others disagree).

But to simply say, as trans ideology demands on pain of being a bigot, that trans women have to be treated identically to women at all times and in all circumstances will be severely detrimental to women who are oppressed based on their sex. Trans women will not experience the same discrimination and therefore shouldn’t automatically be entitled to identify into the same protections.

Stonewall campaigned to remove sex as a protected characteristic from the Equality Act (and the proposed American Equality Act has actually done this). The erasure of sex as a measure of oppression is offensive to trans ideology, and it could not be clearer that this presents a real problem for women’s rights.

You made an assumption based on OP's thoughts. I merely pointed out they are not exclusive to young people.

Actually, you made an assumption that I made an assumption. I saw it was (seemingly) a one post thread and did a quick AS, before wasting my time on a one thread poster, on a well-covered elsewhere topic, and saw the OP states elsewhere she is 27.

*I have nothing against that agenda

@steakandcheeseplease

I see the OP hasn't come back to the thread.

Kind of like throwing a grenade in to a room and walking off.

Great fodder for twitter though..

OP has come back to the thread, as name changed @illuminatethis

So OP has demanded we 'illuminate' her.

To be honest, as OP has said she has trans friends, I'm rather surprised at apparent level of ignorance 🤨🤨