to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

@PurpleDaisies

Oh, it’s a post a goady op and disappear job.

No deletions yet though!

@illuminatethis the confusion is because you name changed.

Thank you to all who are posting genuine replies it's very helpful! Just to confirm I don't have my mind made up about anything either way, I'm torn, that's why I posted.

I lean towards (as you can tell from my OP) letting trans women into female spaces but this is probably because I am friends with a couple of trans women so have those nice kind people in my mind when I think of 'trans women'. Lots of good points here so thanks for all contributing. Especially things like prisons, refuges, and female representation in places of power. Plus how sex bases statsitics would be impacted. I am listening

What do you think of the above?

I think you are young and silly, though clearly wellmeaning.

I also think you have no grasp of the sacrifices and the great efforts made by successive generations of women over hundreds of years to obtain the most basic of women's rights.

@Skybluepinkgiraffe - understandable! I just figured out how to do it

If you have a penis you are male, you might identify as female but you should not be going into women only places.
If we can have Para-sports why not trans-sports as a male born woman will always be stronger and faster than a female born woman.
I think if that's how you truly feel and want to transition and live as a woman all power to you but this "right" should not trump fundamental woman's right to a penis free zone.

@PurpleDaisies

Oh, it’s a post a goady op and disappear job.

No, just used a different name for the screen shots it seems.

I do not think that anyone would think that 130kg biological male Laurel Hubbard, who identifies as a woman should be competing as part of the NZ 87kg+ female team in the Olympics.

Hubbard took the spot from a Samoan woman half their age. When males say they are women - that really does take the absolute piss out of who we are.

These are the first Olympics where biological males can compete in women's sports. So far there are 9 hopefuls. I wonder how many men will cotton on to this easy trick for the next Olympics? Honestly, what is the point of women's sports if men can just join in willy-nilly

(excuse the pun)

I agree OP but won’t go well on here unfortunately. I share the same views as you

Historically I would have regarded myself as a supporter of trans-rights. However, I do think I would now argue from some clearer boundaries. Women have vaginas- this is my view and five years ago would not have been controversial. I would even be willing to add generally in front of vaginas, but this for me is a simple fact and I would object to being referred to as a person who menstruates or pregnant person as I think this is erasing my female identity. The pushback on anyone who argues this position can be tremendous and I am not in favour of stifling debate.

Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him?

The door might not physically stop him, but if men (and transwomen) aren't allowed in women's spaces then it's likely he will be challenged when he goes in. If we allow transwomen into the spaces then people won't question men for fear of them being/claimingto be a TW and therefore being called a t*/transphobe.

Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

I'm a CSA survivor. My abuser told me it was a shame he couldn't volunteer as a guide leader so he could always be with me. I doubt he would have abused me at guides, but it was one of the only places he couldn't be. It was a safe place for me.

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women.

No fucking shit Sherlock! Do you think we don't know that men are the problem?

So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

3rd spaces. Male. Female. Shared.

@illuminatethis doesn't this prove that most women are willing to discuss this calmly and rationally?
It's not us who are for #nodebate or some of the rather nasty abuse that goes on towards women (ie Joanne Rowling) on Twitter, or those unpleasant banners that were seen at Pride events.
Again, thank you for starting this thread

YABU. You know trans women aren’t actually women, yes?

Toilets and changing rooms are red herrings. The important issue is trans women being held in female prisons, or trans women competing in contact sport (or indeed any sport) against women, or trans women bullying their way into places where women feel vulnerable, or telling young lesbian women that they are bigoted if they don't choose to have sex with lesbians-with-penises.

A penis is a weapon. We can wish it wasn't, but it is.

Anyone who has done safeguarding training will know that predators use whatever access they can get. It’s not that trans people are paedophiles or predators, it’s that men who are paedophiles, predators and violent criminals will and already have used trans status to access eg women’s prisons.

@Maddiemademe

I agree OP but won’t go well on here unfortunately. I share the same views as you

So you agree male bodied people should be able to compete in women's sport, access women's refuges, be sent to women's prison, work with vulnerable young girls, etc? You completely agree with all of that?

Do you think this man is pretending to be trans so he can get access to young girls?

Sorry, your whole argument seems to demand an answer of ‘No, of course not!’ to this question, or be labelled ‘phobic’.

How staggeringly naive.

The answer is...I don’t know, the poster you asked doesn’t know, YOU don’t know and no one bloody knows! No one knows what threat this hypothetical man could pose.

Why do you think safeguarding exists?

Why do you think single sex spaces exist? Why do you think women had to fight for them in the first place?

Do you think anyone trans is incapable of any kind of sexual violence?

Hi OP. @DrSbaitso's message is a great starting summary. If you're interested in knowing more and accessing the arguments and evidence in more depth, try this website:

sex-matters.org

Go onto the menu button that says "Where sex matters" and you'll find listed the places where biological sex remains politically significant, and where women's sex-based rights and protections are important: single-sex services, sports, the workplace, freedom of speech, safeguarding and schools, healthcare, prisons, data and statistics, the legal system and science. Open up any of these headings and the potential problems are explored.

The thing is, there's sometimes a rights conflict here. It's not that the people defending women's sex-based rights have a problem with transwomen, or hate them, or anything like that. The Equality Act is set up explicitly to recognise rights conflicts, and it says that the protected characteristics aren't hierarchical - no one protected characteristic should trump another, but where there is a conflict there should be evidence-based discussion and a resolution that protects everyone's rights. So, for instance, a workplace seeking to provide appropriate toilet and showering facilities shouldn't EITHER tell transwomen they have to use the men's (because they wouldn't be safe or comfortable there) OR tell all employees to use the facilities they feel align with their gender identity (because a) that's open to abuse by predatory men, b) women might not be able to tell the difference between a male-presenting transwoman and a predatory man so don't know who to challenge, c) any women who've experienced sexual assault may be re-traumatised by even the prospect of male-presenting people in an intimate space and d) for many women it's a violation of boundaries). That employer should, instead, seek to protect everyone by having a decent balance of single-sex and open facilities, and/or having entirely private floor-to-ceiling cubicles with washbasins enclosed in them.

That's a straightforward example. In other instances there isn't a straightforward solution, so it takes careful, evidence-based dialogue to work out what should be done. Unfortunately the insistence from some quarters that sex is now irrelevant and should no longer be protected, and that anyone arguing for women's sex-based rights and provisions is transphobic, has brought about a febrile climate where it's very hard to work out the way forward.

There are complex issues, going way beyond the single-sex spaces identified in your OP. Do have a look at the Sex Matters website to get more of a handle on the range of issues.

@unwuthering

What do you think of the above?

I think you are young and silly, though clearly wellmeaning.

I also think you have no grasp of the sacrifices and the great efforts made by successive generations of women over hundreds of years to obtain the most basic of women's rights.

I think this is really unfair. My mother is over 60 and thinks like OP.

She is also intelligent, empathetic, witty and passionate about things she cares about.

Or you agree the the protected right of biological women is less relevant than that of biological males.

Women's rights are at risk because

Prisons
Refuge
Sport

Would all become a fucking nightmare.

Do you want women raped in their prison cells by violent offenders? Do you want women who are raped and battered to share a space in a women's refuge with a penis? Do you want a woman to be tackled by a opponent that weighs 18stone of biological male power?

Toilets, changing rooms ....meh. not great but could be sorted. The 3 mentioned above puts women in dangerous positions and even more vulnerable.

How will we be able to fight for women's rights if we can't even use the word woman?

@illuminatethis

Thank you to all who are posting genuine replies it's very helpful! Just to confirm I don't have my mind made up about anything either way, I'm torn, that's why I posted.

I lean towards (as you can tell from my OP) letting trans women into female spaces but this is probably because I am friends with a couple of trans women so have those nice kind people in my mind when I think of 'trans women'. Lots of good points here so thanks for all contributing. Especially things like prisons, refuges, and female representation in places of power. Plus how sex bases statsitics would be impacted. I am listening

OP, I'm friends with many lovely men, including my husband. It doesn't mean I, or they, think men should be allowed into female spaces.

I have a problem understanding the term gender.
Like, what does it actually mean to be a woman? Why can’t you be a man but like “female” things. Why do people change their gender to female but still keep their male genitalia? Sounds like picking and choosing the best parts of being female to me.

When I was younger I was so jealous of men and thought it was unfair that I didn’t have a penis. I like traditionally male activities, all my friends as a teenager were male, my first job was manual labour in a factory, all my hobbies are things that are usually done by men, and even my career is traditionally done by men. Does that mean I should be trans? I don’t think so, I have a “feminine” side too.
I don’t agree with the idea that certain activities are for males or females, they should be for everyone. You shouldn’t be made to feel weird for liking what you like. We’ve been conditioned from a young age into accepting gender stereotypes and it’s not okay. Why are there boy toy aisles and girl toy aisles in the toy shops? Why can’t children be encouraged to do anything and figure out what they like for themselves.

Can’t people just embrace their “masculine” and “feminine” sides without being judged and have the need to stick a label on themselves? Or do they feel like they’re in the wrong body like some kind of body dysmorphia? It’s all very confusing, I’m confused.

This is a controversial opinion I know, and I would like some help understanding.