to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

We are living through the most misogynistic era I've ever known and women are under attack all over the place, even down to the word woman. Open your eyes OP.

Two issues here for me

1- is the fact that very ‘traditional’ views on what makes a woman or a man are pushed through. All about external symbols of pink, high heels, make up and sewing.
2- thé fact it’s widely opened to abuse seeing that it’s ok for a transperçons to be of one gender one day, the other the next. Decision can be taken at the drop of the hat etc…. Is it different from a man going into a women. Changing room? Yes. Because women then have no other choice but to accept a male behaving as a male around them. See the trans girl oggling girls in a women changing room whilst having an erection. Aka. Behaving like. A. Teen boy.

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Sports

Women's refuges

Women's prisons

"Someone's hardly likely to" is a bit of a rubbish and naive argument...

And this. OP what's your view on Laurel Hubbard representing women, at the expense of a biological woman, in Tokyo shortly.

Because if you accept a TW should be allowed in ladies segregated spaces then your ok with this?

I am not anti-trans. A young man I've known since babyhood is now a young woman. He was a nice lad and now she's an equally nice woman however she is still has the build of the 6ft + rugby playing man she used to be and (so her mum tells me) still has a penis. I do not want someone with a penis to be in a woman only space because that person has the power and capacity to rape. I am sure this lovely young person wouldn't do that. I'm sure most trans women wouldn't. I know most men wouldn't. But as long as they have that power I don't want to be in a private women's space with them.

@camaleon

I totally agree with you. I believe this 'debate' has been framed in a way (are transwomen women?) that is really unhelpful and leads to confrontation between different groups with their own interest. A lot of it is dominated by hidden religious interests. Many of those behind this are scandalized about 'mixed' areas in many environments and are using the trans issue to pursue their agendas of keeping segregated sex spaces. I have nothing about that agenda, but it should not be disguised with one theme only. It is not a coincidence that this debate is particularly heated in the UK were Victorian attitudes to things such as nudity are very pronounced. The way this has been framed there is no way it is going to find solutions that protect the rights of transpeople in any reasonable way. Women's rights are under attack only if we continue this sterile discussion instead of finding a better way of listening and addressing the real life issues at stake.

Hidden religious interest?!?!? I hope you warmed up before reaching that hard.

Do you want women raped in their prison cells by violent offenders? Do you want women who are raped and battered to share a space in a women's refuge with a penis?

Imagine being in a prison with a female face and body with breasts with hundreds of males. This has happened before and is a lot more dangerous than having 1 or 2 transgender people in a women’s prison.

I don’t know what the answer is and I actually agree that certain spaces need to be single sexed but I also understand Biology and how easy it is for chromosomes to get mixed up and someone becoming XX instead of XY.
I can’t think of anything worse than being born in the wrong body and I don’t think anyone should have to live their lives miserable because they were born with breasts and a vagina instead of a penis.

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men

Well done, this is exactly it!

But now that ANY man can say he is a woman, without any effort to look like one (thanks to gender expression not having to match gender identity), then yes, any sexually voyeuristic and predatory man can enter. And of course they will. We have the entire history of the behaviour of sexually predatory men to know they will.

Most women and girls, with good reason, do not like to be naked around stranger males (or any males they are not sexually intimate with) or to see naked men, for obvious reason,. We have all grown up with being harassed and bothered sexually by men. If you haven't heard of this OP you may want to look up MeToo. However, there are men who will love the power of forcing women to see them naked (ever heard of flashers?) or who just like to perv on naked women and girls and love the power of women not being able to say no to them.
Do you seriously think these men will not walk through this massive safeguarding loophole?

This is why we have sex segregated spaces. Because we can't know who the good guys are and who are the bad guys. So we keep out all guys. There isn't anything else that works.

Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Have you watched the video of the incident in the Wi Spa? That should answer your question

Given the percentage of sexual abuse conducted by male sexed individuals as compared to that by female sex individuals; and in light of the #MeToo movement not so long ago; many, many women by sex (a protected characteristic) have been sexually assaulted by male sex individuals.

Thus sharing spaces such as toilets, refuges, prisons, etc is often really traumatic.

This is not the fault of the transwoman. But the right of women by sex to use those women's spaces separate from the male by sex are not of lesser importance.

It does not have to be a trampoline of biological women's rights (a protected characteristic), it can be equally important, without being supremely important.

Fair even.

It is sad when there are women like OP who are willing to throw our single-sex rights under the bus and act all disingenious.

@ghostyslovesheets

as straight men attracted to women I highly doubt it Wendy

You highly doubt that there were three men in my lesbian women’s group this lunchtime? Please feel free to join one, it’s almost laughable how many men there are in lesbian spaces, more than women!

I just feel that it wouldn't be removing a protection because I don't think women are offered protection to begin with - there's not protection to remove, unless the door is guarded a door with a 'women only sign' doesn't offer protection

You cannot be this naive. No, we don't lock the doors but the sign makes a clear boundary and gives people the right to challenge and remove people who don't belong in there.

You truly do not think removing the boundary, instruction and prohibition makes it more likely there'll be a crime? Why bother protecting women in law then, why bother making assault a crime? They'll do it anyway!

Can't you see what dangerous pretzel logic you're reaching for, because you are being pressured to prioritise male sexed people's wishes for validation over female people's safety?

@AnotherKrampus

It is sad when there are women like OP who are willing to throw our single-sex rights under the bus and act all disingenious.

it's for screenshots

So wonderful to see so many parents not giving a shit about the dignity and boundaries of young girls.

If my daughter doesn't want to be sleeping in a dorm with a biological male who claims to be female why do her feelings come second?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men

What is the objective difference between a transwoman and a man? At what objective point does a 'man' actually become a 'transwoman'? Why should the inner feelings of a male have any bearing at all on safeguarding policy?

@AryaStarkWolf

Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Have you watched the video of the incident in the Wi Spa? That should answer your question

Insisting on specific events to prove your point is the same as those who keep showing horrific events from groups as ISIS to justify the exclusion of all Muslims from a country. It is exactly the same methodology.

You will always find spacegoats, real monsters who prove your point. this is not how regulations should be drafted.

Using this approach leads to abuse of all kinds of minorities.

@MotionActivatedDog

Why does everyone think this is all about toilets? is it just wilful ignorance? Because the impact of allowing self ID in terms of access to single sex spaces is far reaching and has been widely discussed. Schools, sports, hospital wards, DV refuges, residential care, girl guides, prisons, funding for STEM programmes, crime statistics, the list just goes on and on.

If you really think this is just about peeing then you haven’t done enough reading and you aren’t ready to ask this question.

👏

If trans / non binary people wanted third 'mixed sex gender neutral' spaces for toilets, prisons, sport etc that is quite possibly something a load more people would get behind.

But the campaigners don't want that, because not accepting that transwomen are women isn't validating them.

Woman isn't a feeling, it is biology.

People can't change sex. 98% of violent and sexual offences are committed by male bodied people. Victims are overwhelmingly women and children. Therefore we need safeguarding and private spaces. These will not be given up to validate male people feeling they are a woman. If transwomen don't feel safe in male only spaces then that is a problem for men to solve, not for women to accommodate and put themselves at risk.

You only have to look at the news stories about the Korean Spa in the US where women were being labelled transphobic for objecting to a naked intact male settling down next to them and their daughters in a female only space. It happens, it really does.

@Kit19

Danielle says they are a woman so they are - welcome to self ID. I await your explanation as to how we tell the TW Danielle Muscato from a man

@MissPrimaryCrafts @illuminatethis

What do you think about the?
If you've truly come here to be educated (), how does 'Danielle's' Twitter post impact your views?

@Ooodlesofboodles

People can't change sex. 98% of violent and sexual offences are committed by male bodied people. Victims are overwhelmingly women and children. Therefore we need safeguarding and private spaces. These will not be given up to validate male people feeling they are a woman. If transwomen don't feel safe in male only spaces then that is a problem for men to solve, not for women to accommodate and put themselves at risk.

Except for sexual assault, most violent crimes are perpretrated by male and victims are also male. So what shall we infer from this according to your logic?

In the past, if a man came into a women's changing room at the swimming pool, took off all his clothes and started showering with naked women and girls, we could ask the pool staff to remove him. They might call the police. Now, we may not be able to do anything about it. It may be the swimming pool's policy to allow a "transwoman" into the women's section. By "transwoman" they mean any man who enters the women's section. No questions asked, no evidence of any kind needed, no need even to wear women's clothes or shave off your beard. Why wouldn't a paedophile take advantage of this?
Plenty of men have become scoutmasters to get the chance to abuse young boys. Now they can become guide leaders to get the chance to abuse young girls, which is more popular.

I think this thread is for screenshots too.

Insisting on specific events to prove your point is the same as those who keep showing horrific events from groups as ISIS to justify the exclusion of all Muslims from a country. It is exactly the same methodology

It’s not remotely the same because we segregate sex and allowing male people into female spaces erodes that segregation. We don’t segregate Muslims out of the country*

*not saying our immigration policy isn’t racist but that’s a separate argument. We don’t have a policy of no Muslims in the UK in the same way we have a no men allowed in women’s changing rooms policy