DP and trans child...what to do?

[Fiddlediddleriddle]

Ok so have NC'd for this, as I know it's emotive Subject for MN but I need some advice.

DS2 announced they were trans woman (so identify as a woman and that is how I will refer to them in this post from now on) nearly 2 years ago. I mean I say announced, she has asd and we have had 2 years of self harm, suicide attempts, school refusal. It's been hugely difficult for the whole family as you can imagine.

DP (not the father of my dc) hates it with a passion and does not support it. After lots of difficult times, will now not call dc after birth given name but won't use chosen name (even though this is a name that isn't gender specific).

Things are calmer, dd is now 16 and has plans for college, but it is unlikely that they will be independent enough to leave home certainly not without some supported or assisted living. My heart breaks when I think about how tough things are for her and how tough they will be especially being trans.

Last night dp asked something that I needed to mention dd to him. He ended up really cross as apparently I used female pronouns too often just to make a point and told me exactly how I could have phrased it differently. I didn't even notice...I mentioned the gender of my DS and it wasn't a problem as they are not trans. I was just making comment on something and used her and she because she is my child and I will love and support her whatever.

Dp was so cross with me. I apologised because it was late and I wanted to sleep and if I had defended myself and my child it would have caused an argument.

But I have woken up thinking...this is my life if I stay with this man. We have been together 8 years (known for longer) and if dd doesn't leave home for many years am I going to be expected to tiptoe round dp at all times when in my own home discussing my own child?

I don't know if DD will stay trans there are so many many issues but to me it doesn't matter I will love and support her whatever. We are on a waiting list for specialist counselling to help her unravel her feelings and she has support groups and CAMHS and school online support. Who knows what the future holds but she is my child, she is kind and gentle and so so funny and so so confused about herself and her life and desperately trying to find a place to fit in.

And yet in her own home she has a step parent who refuses to support her in the way she feels as he doesn't like it it is weird and it makes him feel uncomfortable.

What would you do if you were me? I do love him but I love my dc more.

This is what I was saying exactly to upthread
The pulling out of one or two headlines to fear and hate monger point

It’s never enough though is it? It’s always n+1 before showing any concern. 20 pages of examples here and still people say “it will never happen”, “it’s just a few examples”, and “it’s scaremongering”.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Personally just one woman or girl assaulted because of loss of safeguarding of single sex spaces is too many. How many will it take for you to care Quaggars? 100? 1000? 10,000?

And it is my opinion that Stonewall does transsexuals and those with dysphoria no favours.

Including cross dressers and stating that males have to make no effort to pass in order to say that they are trans in the trans umbrella is harmful to those who are dysphoric.

Happily it is being recognised that Stonewall has misrepresented the law and organisations are speaking with their feet by deciding not to renew participation of the Diversity Scheme.

Link to this pro- trans left leaning article of this morning again for those who missed it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

@lifeturnsonadime I get that, but still you are speaking on behalf of trans women. Don’t.

@NotBadConsidering, literally the same argument used to incite hate towards any minority. Do better.

Again I'm telling you the opinion of the transwomen I know and I am telling you MY OPINION.

Are you stating I have no right to an OPINION on the impact of Stonewall on transexuals, really?

Are you stating that I have no right to say that the opinion of some transwomen is that Stonewall harms not only the rights of women but their position in society?

What you are really doing is telling me to shut up because what I am saying doesn't fit your narrative.

@lifeturnsonadime you’re entitled to your opinion sweetpea, same as you are on ‘gay rights’ ‘BLM’. BUT it’s problematic when people from outside those specific communities starting speaking on behalf of them, criticising and start waving red herrings around based on their ‘opinions’ (which might not be the most informed or perhaps even coloured by their own prejudices)

I have not once spoken on behalf of anyone. In response to someone stated we should speak to transwomen I have stated the opinion of those I know and given my opinion.

Have you read the article I linked this morning twice?

Stonewall is problematic, this is not a minority view. This week the Ministry of Justice and Ofsted amongst others have spoken with their feet.

@Sleeplessem, the poster was ‘speaking on behalf’ of the trans people she knows in real life, whose views she knows and understands. This was in response to the suggestion that those of us who are GC do not know any trans people in RL.

Why are you allowed to talk about what trans people want/need/believe but the rest of us aren’t? (That’s a rhetorical question, I already know the answer).

@Sleeplessem

Article in the Observer today for the third time.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I feel deeply for those transsexuals who have been shoved under the bus along with women.

[quote Sleeplessem]@lifeturnsonadime I get that, but still you are speaking on behalf of trans women. Don’t.

@NotBadConsidering, literally the same argument used to incite hate towards any minority. Do better.[/quote]
Males aren’t a minority. Safeguarding of women and girls is based completely on protecting the many from the harm committed by the few males, with the acknowledgment of the remainder of males have to put up with it. Most males accept this willingly because they know the protection it brings.

Would you leave a 10 year old alone with a stranger male in female public toilets on the assumption that male identifies as a woman?

The trans bit doesn't matter. What matters is you have a man in your child's life who dislikes your child greatly, and that is incredibly damaging and dangerous.

I am saddened that a thread for a mum asking support for her family has turned into a TRA discussion on bloody toilets again (funnily enough never prisons, wards or sports...).

We disagree if any male can ever become a woman, got it. Can we just stop and Bizawit and group move over to FWR for some robust debating? Just come prepared with stats and evidence because the women there know exactly what they are talking about.

Back to OP. I actually think the trans feelings of said child are the tip of the iceberg and maybe something to hide behind? It is real easy to say partner doesn't agree with declaring to be trans as a solution to mental health problems. And you know what, he is probably right if you look at the statistics available. Yes, I know they are limited, transgender treatment is the only medical treatment with no follow up or research done, says a lot as well actually.

Chances are he could also be wrong, but your child, OP, is going to learn to accept pushback that they haven't really changed their sex and they will not always be welcome in a very limited set of places. I still think family councilling is the way to go, for your child to understand the limitations, for you and for your partner to work through your differences and for your other children for support within the family dynamics.

Sun 06-Jun-21 13:06:08
I am saddened that a thread for a mum asking support for her family has turned into a TRA discussion on bloody toilets again (funnily enough never prisons, wards or sports...).

So am I, and said so upthread.
To paint as "TRA's discussing bloody toilets again is not accurate though, seeing as it was a poster saying "what toilet does your child go in?"
Cue who you call TRA's saying what the fuck has that got to do with anything, can't we just give support to the OP?
It is truly sad it has descended into the usual guff.
Let's hope people give it a rest now (yes, and me too)

What matters is you have a man in your child's life who dislikes your child greatly, and that is incredibly damaging and dangerous

I tend to agree with this - it doesn't sound a healthy relationship to be in, and a toxic environment for your DC to be around.

@lifeturnsonadime

Gosh these threads are circular.

In a nutshell, Women and Men are different sexes. We have sex based provisions for a reason, predominantly safeguarding.

If men identify as women it does not change their sex and in this country, despite what Stonewall has erroneously has tried to convince LA's and other businesses, provides sex based safe spaces.

As others have said gender non conforming males have no legal right to enter single sex safe spaces. Anger towards women on this issue is misplaced. If transwomen are worried about male violence then their issue should be with men who attack them and the fight should be to make the spaces appropriate to their sex safe for all.

I'm sick of women being told to be nice about this.

Exactly! Transwomen’s fight is with men not women. If they don’t feel safe in the presence of other males, they need to address that, look for solutions and not make it a female problem.

I asked the question as I have started letting my 11 year old dd go to female toilets and I wait outside them. She also goes with her 6 year old sister (who never closes the door). She needs independence. However if the risk of her been harmed is high then I need to continue to go with her. Again males can harm females in ways women can't harm females. This is what my worry is so from this thread I've found that lots of men are using female toilets so I will start going again with her. Gender is based on sex however people can identify as they please I will call someone whatever they want to be called no issues therefore so should the partner.

But toilets, hospitals and prisons I personally feel needs to segregated by the gender of what is in someone's pants. If the person has undergone a sex change and become a full female then they can use female toilets but until such a time I think they should use male toilets.

Again males can harm females in ways women can't harm females. This is what my worry is so from this thread I've found that lots of men are using female toilets so I will start going again with her.

Lots of men aren't using female toilets though, is that really what you get from this thread?
I'm well into my 40s, I have never come across men in the toilets with me, lots or otherwise.
MN would have you thinking differently though.
I mean, genuinely, rational head on - (that's not a slight towards women before anyone starts) - how many men have you seen in the toilets in your years in there?
I haven't seen any.
I realise I don't speak for everyone but I know it's not the norm for blokes to be wandering in and out.

You are an excellent parent and you should know how much that means to your daughter. Your partner is being a cockwomble and doesn't deserve either of you in his life

This is what my worry is so from this thread I've found that lots of men are using female toilets so I will start going again with her

She still needs her independence, just explain that males shouldn’t be in the ladies but might be in there by ‘accident’ so she should come out and tell you

If you are outside the loo you can see if a male follows them in and go in as well

Its only happened very rarely to me and virtually always because they are either a cleaner or in the wrong place and leave quickly , but obviously if there are mixed sex toilets all over the place then the risk would be greater

@ISeeTheLight

The trans thing is a red herring imo. Your child is having mental health issues and your DP is making it worse. Your responsibility lies with your child. Get rid of the DP unless he can be 100% supportive of doing what's best for your child.

This is what it boils down to. Whatever the DP's thoughts are around OP's son thinking he's a girl, he needs to be supportive, and if he can't do that he needs to leave.

@RedToothBrush

The current trans ideology destroys families.

Why?

Because it destroys the ability of them to speak freely and honestly when they need to about sensitive matters. Which families need.

Instead all efforts are put into walking on eggshells and avoiding the elephant in the room to make sure one member of the family isn't upset or distressed by material reality. This isnt cost free and comes at the expense of other family members who spend their entire energy supporting this unreality. Its grossly unfair because of how much stress it puts on many who are then not allowed to release this pressure because they will be labelled as toxic.

They aren't toxic. The dynamic is toxic. And for many its completely unsustainable in the long run.

I don't think the DP is an awful man for not going along with it unquestionably. It just highlights the extent of the energy being put into upholding something that everyone involved knows to be untrue. It creates stress. It unbalances relationships. It makes dynamics which were very healthy, completely toxic.

Families work and are healthy when people can talk about things, no matter what. Ironically this 'inclusive extremism' puts some people who are just observing reality of a situation and the problems it can create in a situation - without malice or ill intent - where there they can no longer do that and tensions build up slowly until they eventually reach breaking point.

I genuinely don't think this is avoidable in many cases because the current trans orthodoxy is so unrealistic and self centred. It neglects the reality that this does have impact on others and its not just pronouns and a name change as much as they want to push the idea that it is. If nothing else the push to centre the trans person above all else creates situation where often unacceptable behaviour goes unchallenged when in any other situation, it would be dealt with / resolved properly. I'm not talking legally unacceptable stuff here, I'm talking about the small stuff like basic manners and respect. The glue that holds relationships together.

Having seen it in my own family, my mother became a saint for going fully onboard with it all. But she did it in a way which made her become a slave to it and often a complete doormat. It was to the exclusion of other relationships. She ceases to communicate and talk to others about what was upsetting them etc because she just said 'you are wrong' whilst she simultaneously tolerated behaviour that was dreadful. My siblings partner was outright aggressive and confrontational in an extremely rude manner - my mother acknowledged it, warned us and then expected us to suck it up - all 'because trans'. This isnt inclusive. This is having different rules and levels of expectation for different family members. From what I've seen of other families this is pretty typical dynamics rather than being a one off.

As DH says to me, all the drama in soaps always comes from people lying and being unable to be honest with each other. If they sat down and explained things properly 9/10 storylines wouldn't happen. I think in terms of life lessons and experience of how relationships work its a very pointed observation.

Communication is key to relationships. I believe a trans dynamic often leads to a breakdown in this, because things end up unspoken to avoid upsetting people. But that only leads to it festering and becoming toxic in the long run. To make things work, we have to properly address things - as a family unit - where the views and feelings of all are fully respected. The equality balancing act to be truly equal. The orthodoxy being pushed now, totally forgets this.

It will lead to a backlash and many, many people - both trans and not trans - will get hurt as it unravels. The unwillingness to understand that equality is a difficult balancing act where difficult issues and conflicts must be addressed head on rather than swept under the carpet is where its going wrong and where its already hurt and destroyed so many families.

Beautifully put.