DP and trans child...what to do?

[Fiddlediddleriddle]

Ok so have NC'd for this, as I know it's emotive Subject for MN but I need some advice.

DS2 announced they were trans woman (so identify as a woman and that is how I will refer to them in this post from now on) nearly 2 years ago. I mean I say announced, she has asd and we have had 2 years of self harm, suicide attempts, school refusal. It's been hugely difficult for the whole family as you can imagine.

DP (not the father of my dc) hates it with a passion and does not support it. After lots of difficult times, will now not call dc after birth given name but won't use chosen name (even though this is a name that isn't gender specific).

Things are calmer, dd is now 16 and has plans for college, but it is unlikely that they will be independent enough to leave home certainly not without some supported or assisted living. My heart breaks when I think about how tough things are for her and how tough they will be especially being trans.

Last night dp asked something that I needed to mention dd to him. He ended up really cross as apparently I used female pronouns too often just to make a point and told me exactly how I could have phrased it differently. I didn't even notice...I mentioned the gender of my DS and it wasn't a problem as they are not trans. I was just making comment on something and used her and she because she is my child and I will love and support her whatever.

Dp was so cross with me. I apologised because it was late and I wanted to sleep and if I had defended myself and my child it would have caused an argument.

But I have woken up thinking...this is my life if I stay with this man. We have been together 8 years (known for longer) and if dd doesn't leave home for many years am I going to be expected to tiptoe round dp at all times when in my own home discussing my own child?

I don't know if DD will stay trans there are so many many issues but to me it doesn't matter I will love and support her whatever. We are on a waiting list for specialist counselling to help her unravel her feelings and she has support groups and CAMHS and school online support. Who knows what the future holds but she is my child, she is kind and gentle and so so funny and so so confused about herself and her life and desperately trying to find a place to fit in.

And yet in her own home she has a step parent who refuses to support her in the way she feels as he doesn't like it it is weird and it makes him feel uncomfortable.

What would you do if you were me? I do love him but I love my dc more.

@lolacola77

Go with the trend. He/she will grow out of it when the fashion dies down. Don't make drama as that'll make it worse. Act like you're cool and accepting then watch the backtrack 😂

Don't be a moron. There may be some children who just get confused over gender due to outside influences as teenagers but there are huge numbers of people who continue to identify as a different gender through out their life (whether or not they choose to get surgery or permanently change their gender identity). Not taking your child seriously when they're going through something as massive as this or being so childishly dismissive would be incredibly damaging for them. OP sounds kind and supportive and doesn't have your ridiculous attitude.

There may be some children who just get confused over gender due to outside influences as teenagers but there are huge numbers of people who continue to identify as a different gender through out their life

I think you’re confused about this, although I’d never be as rude as to use the word “moron”. Surely you are aware, that if a medical pathway is avoided, most children desist?

@nolongersurprised

I feel uncomfortable sharing bathroom spaces with people who are obsessed with what is in a teenagers pants tbh

Don’t be creepy. No one needs to “look in someone’s pants” to correctly work out the sex of a man/post-pubertal boy.

There’s nothing wrong with women wanting same-sex toilets, changing areas and the like.

Ha. Sorry to burst your bubble but you share public bathrooms with trans people all the time and no you wouldn’t necessarily have any idea.

Ha. Sorry to burst your bubble but you share public bathrooms with trans people all the time and no you wouldn’t necessarily have any idea

No, sorry to burst your bubble but generally transwomen don’t “pass”. Women just put their head down and ignore.

Ha. Sorry to burst your bubble but you share public bathrooms with trans people all the time and no you wouldn’t necessarily have any idea.

Ok I have a hypothetical scenario for you to consider @Bizawit :

You’re in a public female toilet. It’s public but pretty quiet, you’re the only one in there. As you leave, a 10 year old girl enters. Shortly after a male enters. You have now left. Do you:

a) return to the toilets to make sure the girl is safe or
b) assume the males identifies as a woman and do nothing?

@NotBadConsidering, come on. You’re being a little ridiculous here.

Do you understand that a trans woman isn’t just a cis man who on a whim says today I’m going to identify as woman?

[quote Sleeplessem]@NotBadConsidering, come on. You’re being a little ridiculous here.

Do you understand that a trans woman isn’t just a cis man who on a whim says today I’m going to identify as woman?[/quote]
So can you tell me how we can tell the difference between the two?

Yes do please explain how we tell the difference? See Danielle muscato for example

Stonewall has made it very clear “acceptance without exception” if a man says he’s a woman then he is right? #nodebate

Between a trans woman and a cis gendered male? I’d have thought that would be obvious…

@Sleeplessem

Between a trans woman and a cis gendered male? I’d have thought that would be obvious…

No, a trans woman, and a predatory male who might see the loophole widening and be able to exploit it. How do you tell the difference if you’re faced with the scenario I posed? Would you just leave the girl to it?

@NotBadConsidering, but do you not see how you are putting the blame in the wrong place here? The issue isn’t the trans woman, it’s the predatory male. And we can’t hold the trans community accountable for that or make them suffer because of predatory males.

The same argument is used in countries that impose dress codes, curfews on women or banned women driving (until recently), ‘we have to…it’s about protection.. women might get raped… there are predatory men’. It was a poor argument in those circumstances and it’s a poor one now

[quote Sleeplessem]@NotBadConsidering, but do you not see how you are putting the blame in the wrong place here? The issue isn’t the trans woman, it’s the predatory male. And we can’t hold the trans community accountable for that or make them suffer because of predatory males.

The same argument is used in countries that impose dress codes, curfews on women or banned women driving (until recently), ‘we have to…it’s about protection.. women might get raped… there are predatory men’. It was a poor argument in those circumstances and it’s a poor one now[/quote]
I’m not putting the blame on anyone. Personally I want to apply the same safeguarding strategies that exist currently to keep males out of women’s and girls spaces. There are millions of lovely males in the world, but we don’t allow them unfettered access to women’s spaces because of safeguarding. This also applies to transwomen, who are male. They are no more or less likely to be predatory.

It’s not the trans community that is accountable for predatory males, it’s the male community. If transwomen were being considerate, they would appreciate they are widening the loophole that other males might exploit. Why do we have sex-segregated spaces in the first place?

Your curfew argument makes no sense, it’s not remotely the same argument. Women need safeguarding protections, that’s not the same as impositions. If males were placed on a curfew, would you take that? Most women fantasise how amazing that would be.

And you still haven’t answered. What would you do in my scenario. Leave the girl to it, assuming the male you saw identifies as a woman?

notbadconsidering

I think you have your answer there

And we can’t hold the trans community accountable for that or make them suffer because of predatory males.

Equally, we can’t hold men as a class accountable for the actions of predatory males because most men are not predators. And yet we do not allow ANY men to use single sex spaces reserved for women. Men are generally not offended by being excluded from women’s single sex spaces (even when they know that they themselves are not a predatory man) because they understand that this is safeguarding and is nothing personal.

@NotBadConsidering so a trans woman should have to use a male bathroom and changing room? Regardless of the fact of how triggering that might be and the fact that trans women are regularly attacked because of their appearance.

The reason why trans women (outed or non passing) are attacked for their appearance is often because visually they often look quite different from cis males.

It does make sense insofar as it’s holding back the rights of one group of people because of the potential actions of another group.

I can’t speak for the trans community but from my work in the gender studies space, there are a lot of gender neutral spaces including disabled toilets that I know are preferred by a lot of trans and gender queer individuals

As always the problem is male violence and in order to deal with male violence, women are expected to shunt up & give up their spaces whilst men get to keep all of theirs and lecture women for being mean for not giving up theirs

[quote Sleeplessem]@NotBadConsidering so a trans woman should have to use a male bathroom and changing room? Regardless of the fact of how triggering that might be and the fact that trans women are regularly attacked because of their appearance.

The reason why trans women (outed or non passing) are attacked for their appearance is often because visually they often look quite different from cis males.

It does make sense insofar as it’s holding back the rights of one group of people because of the potential actions of another group.

I can’t speak for the trans community but from my work in the gender studies space, there are a lot of gender neutral spaces including disabled toilets that I know are preferred by a lot of trans and gender queer individuals[/quote]
so a trans woman should have to use a male bathroom and changing room?

So a woman should have to share a bathroom or changing room with a male, regardless of how triggering it might be for her? From past abuse for example?

The reason why trans women (outed or non passing) are attacked for their appearance is often because visually they often look quite different from cis males.

Why is the solution to male on male homophobic or transphobic violence to sacrifice women’s rights and safeguarding?

Also, transwomen can look variably in their appearance. See Danielle Muscato above as an example.

I can’t speak for the trans community but from my work in the gender studies space, there are a lot of gender neutral spaces including disabled toilets that I know are preferred by a lot of trans and gender queer individuals

But not by women, as evidence clearly demonstrates the risk of sexual assault in mixed sex - the real meaning of gender neutral - is significantly higher. Why is that?

Would you leave that 10 year old girl alone so as to potentially not trigger the feelings of that male?

@Sleeplessem Presumably you also understand how the presence of a male body in female only facilities is ‘triggering’ to a great many women?

Female spaces are not a general catch-all safe space for anyone who feels threatened by men. They are for female people: women.

What about other men who might feel threatened in men’s facilities? Elderly/gay/non-conforming/physically weak men? Should they all be allowed to use the ladies’ too?

Ok I have a hypothetical scenario for you to consider @Bizawit* :

You’re in a public female toilet. It’s public but pretty quiet, you’re the only one in there. As you leave, a 10 year old girl enters. Shortly after a male enters. You have now left. Do you:

a) return to the toilets to make sure the girl is safe or
b) assume the males identifies as a woman and do nothing?*

You are being absurd with your hysterical fantasies- Which have everything to do with you and nothing to do with reality.

My point was simply that you can’t always tell whether someone is trans or not. Usually when women call out masculine people in public toilets they are females who look butch. You should read some literature on how unsafe that makes gender non-conforming women feel. Meanwhile it does jot all to protect girls from sexual assault.

Gosh these threads are circular.

In a nutshell, Women and Men are different sexes. We have sex based provisions for a reason, predominantly safeguarding.

If men identify as women it does not change their sex and in this country, despite what Stonewall has erroneously has tried to convince LA's and other businesses, provides sex based safe spaces.

As others have said gender non conforming males have no legal right to enter single sex safe spaces. Anger towards women on this issue is misplaced. If transwomen are worried about male violence then their issue should be with men who attack them and the fight should be to make the spaces appropriate to their sex safe for all.

I'm sick of women being told to be nice about this.

@Bizawit

Ok I have a hypothetical scenario for you to consider @Bizawit* :

You’re in a public female toilet. It’s public but pretty quiet, you’re the only one in there. As you leave, a 10 year old girl enters. Shortly after a male enters. You have now left. Do you:

a) return to the toilets to make sure the girl is safe or
b) assume the males identifies as a woman and do nothing?*

You are being absurd with your hysterical fantasies- Which have everything to do with you and nothing to do with reality.

My point was simply that you can’t always tell whether someone is trans or not. Usually when women call out masculine people in public toilets they are females who look butch. You should read some literature on how unsafe that makes gender non-conforming women feel. Meanwhile it does jot all to protect girls from sexual assault.

You are being absurd with your hysterical fantasies- Which have everything to do with you and nothing to do with reality.

Nothing to do with reality?

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket.

Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March.

My point was simply that you can’t always tell whether someone is trans or not.

No you can’t. Some people think this should mean keeping the same safeguarding in place, that is, keep males out of female spaces. Some think we should just shrug and not care. You seem to be the latter.

You should read some literature on how unsafe that makes gender non-conforming women feel.

You should read some literature on how males, regardless of how they identify, make women feel unsafe.

Meanwhile it does jot all to protect girls from sexual assault.

Making everything mixed sex sure as hell doesn’t make them safer.

interesting article in the Observer today

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

My sister announced to us all at 15 that she is trans. Suddenly her bad behaviour and self harm for the two years previous made sense.

We sat down, told her that she has our full support.

From that day she became he and his chosen name is Alex.

My mum and dad are fully supportive as are our siblings and other family members and family friends.

We immediately saw a change in him, he was happy, laughing, smiling, no more self harm. He had his hair cut etc.

2 years on, he is still that happy, loving, full of life man that we "met" suddenly when he told us that he was so unhappy and the reason why.

It makes my heart warm to know he is content in himself and we all support him with any changes he makes, he's already started taking the hormone tablets.

Support is key here and to be quite honest, your partner sounds like he's an arsehole.

Keira Bell was in her twenties when she realised she’d made a mistake:

www.persuasion.community/p/keira-bell-my-story

@wishawish91 I’m happy for your sibling that they seem to have found peace in expressing themselves in a different way. I also hope they have good advice and support re the longer term effects of testosterone on a female body. Hopefully these will be outweighed by the peace of mind afforded by the transition.