DP and trans child...what to do?

[Fiddlediddleriddle]

Ok so have NC'd for this, as I know it's emotive Subject for MN but I need some advice.

DS2 announced they were trans woman (so identify as a woman and that is how I will refer to them in this post from now on) nearly 2 years ago. I mean I say announced, she has asd and we have had 2 years of self harm, suicide attempts, school refusal. It's been hugely difficult for the whole family as you can imagine.

DP (not the father of my dc) hates it with a passion and does not support it. After lots of difficult times, will now not call dc after birth given name but won't use chosen name (even though this is a name that isn't gender specific).

Things are calmer, dd is now 16 and has plans for college, but it is unlikely that they will be independent enough to leave home certainly not without some supported or assisted living. My heart breaks when I think about how tough things are for her and how tough they will be especially being trans.

Last night dp asked something that I needed to mention dd to him. He ended up really cross as apparently I used female pronouns too often just to make a point and told me exactly how I could have phrased it differently. I didn't even notice...I mentioned the gender of my DS and it wasn't a problem as they are not trans. I was just making comment on something and used her and she because she is my child and I will love and support her whatever.

Dp was so cross with me. I apologised because it was late and I wanted to sleep and if I had defended myself and my child it would have caused an argument.

But I have woken up thinking...this is my life if I stay with this man. We have been together 8 years (known for longer) and if dd doesn't leave home for many years am I going to be expected to tiptoe round dp at all times when in my own home discussing my own child?

I don't know if DD will stay trans there are so many many issues but to me it doesn't matter I will love and support her whatever. We are on a waiting list for specialist counselling to help her unravel her feelings and she has support groups and CAMHS and school online support. Who knows what the future holds but she is my child, she is kind and gentle and so so funny and so so confused about herself and her life and desperately trying to find a place to fit in.

And yet in her own home she has a step parent who refuses to support her in the way she feels as he doesn't like it it is weird and it makes him feel uncomfortable.

What would you do if you were me? I do love him but I love my dc more.

*what do you do other than

Alternatively, just keep safeguarding in place and make sure society knows males cannot be in female spaces? It hasn’t required genital inspections or DNA tests ever since single sex spaces were decided upon, so there’s no need to start now, thankfully

Trans women have been using single sex toilets since they were established.

@DodoPatrol

I’m baffled by the message that my daughter should not ask people about their genitals. She doesn’t. Why on earth did you think she did, from what I wrote?

She might not directly come out and ask then, but how does she ask? You look like a man, should you be in here? Can see that going well, judging people including non trans people on how '' female''they look or present To say to pp' 'you're bit obsessed' : is laughable, seeing as the thread has been dragged off on a tangent into the usual toilet argument which has nothing to do with the OP.

She’s a fab kid and has now moved beyond that school, Lifeturns. Very few of the other students knew about her trauma, I believe.

As I said, the male student concerned was a nice lad/lass and might even have offered to stay clear of the loos if - big if - she’d explained why.

But she shouldn’t need to explain why she needed single-sex facilities.

And not everyone is nice. There seems such a massive helping of naivety and crossing of fingers in the suggestion that we can make everything mixed sex.

Quaggas, you daft wee thing, are you thinking that the kids wouldn’t recognise their classmate after a name change?? No need to ask if they are male when you already know they are.

@Bizawit

Women and girls of all genders are extremely vulnerable to male violence and discrimination. This is not a case of isolated incidents, it’s systematic, and people like you are enabling it.

Yes male violence. Most vAWG is committed by men who they know/ are in intimate relationships with , in private settings. NOT trans teens in public toilets.

And I spend my life doing research / advocacy on violence against women and girls. What do you other than hate on trans people and spread misinformation about how dangerous they are on social media?

And I spend my life doing research / advocacy on violence against women and girls. What do you other than hate on trans people and spread misinformation about how dangerous they are on social media?

Yet, your solution to improving the situation of VAWG is to make all spaces mixed sex, remove the public confidence to challenge this, and to diminish safeguarding? Really?

Can you explain how we are meant to tell the difference between the three categories of male: nice TW, dangerous TW, and men who would take advantage of reduced safeguarding?

Would you, an advocate fighting against VAWG, leave that 10 year old alone with a stranger male? Would you turn the other cheek?

I don’t for one second think you would.

@Bizawit

Women and girls of all genders are extremely vulnerable to male violence and discrimination. This is not a case of isolated incidents, it’s systematic, and people like you are enabling it.

Yes male violence. Most vAWG is committed by men who they know/ are in intimate relationships with , in private settings. NOT trans teens in public toilets.

And I spend my life doing research / advocacy on violence against women and girls. What do you other than hate on trans people and spread misinformation about how dangerous they are on social media?

Yes most violence is committed by known males but that doesn't mean women shouldn't have the right to safeguard against strangers.

As a person who advocates against violence against women and girls I'm astounded you are comfortable in a situation which completely removes safeguarding. This is not about being hostile to transwomen as a group it's about maintaining sex based safeguarding.

Why should the comfort of transwomen and their need to be validated usurp the need of women to be safeguarded by single sex spaces? Why should women , particularly vulnerable ones be put at harm by the need of transwomen for validation. For some women this amounts to a urinary leash.

Daft wee thing
Well, aren't you a patronising bunch of loveliness.
If you read it again, I clearly meant toilets in general.
Which is what people keep talking about.
Not just specific to your scenario, which was a nice question side step, so kudos due there.

Exactly

Yet, your solution to improving the situation of VAWG is to make all spaces mixed sex, remove the public confidence to challenge this, and to diminish safeguarding?

I never said I supported any of these things. This is a complex discussion but it doesn’t start and end with brandishing trans women/ girls sexual predators and insisting that, because of the threat they pose, they must use male toilet facilities.

Sorry OP for derailing the thread 😞. It started off so well...

Oh bloody eck that was supposed to be to a quote, looks like I'm just saying exactly to myself

For the bazilionth time

Stonewall have reached into pretty much every public institution in the UK with the mantra that any man who says he’s a woman must be accepted as such and that no physical changes or difference in presentation is required. Acceptance without exception

The upshot of this is that the police record crime by gender identity not sex so for example if a man is reported to be flashing in a women’s toilet, they simply have to tell the police they identify as a woman and that is what will be recorded

news papers have also been stonewalled meaning they too are required to report crimes by gender identify not sex

The upshot of this is crimes committed by men recorded as being committed by women and reported as such. This is about fully grown intact makes taking advantage of “acceptance without exception” and “nodebate” to take the fucking piss because you know they are criminals! and being enabled by the beeeee kiiiiiiind section of society who still can’t see that allowing men to just say they are women and he accepted as such is a really mad idea with serious real life consequences

Quaggars, you said:

She might not directly come out and ask then, but how does she ask?

I took that to mean ‘how does my daughter’s friend ask whether her male classmate, who she knows to be male, is male.’

She doesn’t ask. She knows. She’s known him, now her, for ages.

If that wasn’t what you meant, then I was wrong to call you daft for asking. Sorry! What did you mean?

It started off so well
Yep, always go the same way.
Original issue of bullying, unsupportive partner lost in all this crap, sorry OP
If you feel unsupported and that he's making your child even more miserable, that's not a healthy situation to be in for either of you.

@Bizawit

Yet, your solution to improving the situation of VAWG is to make all spaces mixed sex, remove the public confidence to challenge this, and to diminish safeguarding?

I never said I supported any of these things. This is a complex discussion but it doesn’t start and end with brandishing trans women/ girls sexual predators and insisting that, because of the threat they pose, they must use male toilet facilities.

Sorry OP for derailing the thread 😞. It started off so well...

No one is brandishing transwomen/girls as predators. A subset of males - transwomen or not - are predators. And you can’t explain how anyone is meant to tell the difference. Because of the threat dangerous males pose, all males must use male facilities. There is no reason to exclude transwomen from this rule.

If you could explain how to tell the difference between the various groups, then it wouldn’t be an issue.

Would you leave that 10 year old alone with a stranger male on the assumption that male identified as a woman?

Still no one has posted all of the tranphobic attacks that transwomen have suffered in the UK in the last 12 months.

If they really are the most oppressed and discriminated against section of society where is the evidence?

There is sadly quite a lot of evidence of predatory males claiming to be trans to get access to women and girls. And of these crimes being, in some cases, recorded as being perpetrated by women.

There is no reason to exclude transwomen from this rule.

I think this is the heart of the problem. There is every reason to treat/ recognise trans women differently / as different from/ to non-trans men. There are so many , many reasons for this. Anyone who has a trans person/ child in their life would understand. It’s so hard to put it all across in a social media soundbite. I wish people who have such strong views on these subjects would take some time to really understand/ get to know trans people in the real world.

@Bizawit

There is no reason to exclude transwomen from this rule.

I think this is the heart of the problem. There is every reason to treat/ recognise trans women differently / as different from/ to non-trans men. There are so many , many reasons for this. Anyone who has a trans person/ child in their life would understand. It’s so hard to put it all across in a social media soundbite. I wish people who have such strong views on these subjects would take some time to really understand/ get to know trans people in the real world.

How strange that you assume we don't?

The transwomen I know believe sex is real and are rather affronted by what Stonewall has done to women, particularly lesbians women.

Stonewall has done transexuals no favours.

I do have a trans person in my life. I love them dearly. I know they haven’t changed sex, that there are times when it’s medically necessary to mention their sex, and that it is not actually hateful to be able to identify someone’s sex despite their superficial appearance.

I can still feel sorry for a rape survivor stuck in a society that prioritises male feelings over female.

I’d leave him, not just for being a bigot but also for not caring about his step child.

My husband and I have been together 20 years and he is dd's biological father. If she had been treated by him the way your DP is behaving, he would be out on his ear.
It's not so much the trans issue but the just the lack of love and care from someone in a parental position. My fella is pretty rubbish with things like this but the way your DP is being is pretty harmful tbh

[quote Sleeplessem]@NotBadConsidering I’d really caution against using one or two headlines and using them to fear and hate monger. The incidents are of course deplorable. We see similar things with islamaphobia, people hold up headlines of terrorism and use it to justify hate towards Muslims.

With regards to the issue of toilets and changing rooms, I return to my point about gender neutral spaces. A lot if not all of public places have them, either as designated unisex spaces or as disabled facilities. But I don’t think this issue should be blown up to be bigger than it is[/quote]
This is what I was saying exactly to upthread
The pulling out of one or two headlines to fear and hate monger point

@lifeturnsonadime, I’m glad you know trans women, but I don’t think you should speak for them

@Bizawit

There is no reason to exclude transwomen from this rule.

I think this is the heart of the problem. There is every reason to treat/ recognise trans women differently / as different from/ to non-trans men. There are so many , many reasons for this. Anyone who has a trans person/ child in their life would understand. It’s so hard to put it all across in a social media soundbite. I wish people who have such strong views on these subjects would take some time to really understand/ get to know trans people in the real world.

And you assume we don’t? Many know that the policy of self ID has led to harm of women and girls.

Again, the solution to the mistreatment of gender non-conforming males at the hands of other males is not to sacrifice the rights of women and girls. The solution to those with genuine gender dysphoria is not to sacrifice the rights of women and girls.

As someone who claims to work in advocacy with victims of VAWG, why don’t you ask them how they would feel if in a refuge or prison with a male?

[quote Sleeplessem]@lifeturnsonadime, I’m glad you know trans women, but I don’t think you should speak for them[/quote]
I'm not speaking for them all, I'm speaking for the ones I know who are upset by the path that Stonewall has taken.

Apologies if that came across incorrectly.