Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

Are you accusing people who don't agree with you as being some kind of stooges @Justnot? That's ridiculous as I'm sure you know

@Frazzledfranny well I would assume all people find war unpalatable, considering the amount of pain and suffering that it causes. But for this thread specifically, the hate and abuse on it is what turns my stomach. I’m not going to weigh in on the situation in Palestine because I cannot find an independent source that isn’t steeped in emotion or prejudice to learn more about it. But I do know that hate, abuse, racism and antisemitism isn’t ok. Criticising Israeli leaders is one thing, but to criticise the whole Jewish population is wrong.

There are plenty of independent sources.
Plenty on here and the last thread to read unless you want to criticise UNICEF, Save the Children, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and The United Nations and a host of other charities as 'anti-Semitic'.

Egypt's President Abdul Fattah al-Sisi said on Monday that his country was "going to great lengths to reach a ceasefire... and hope still exists"
.
The UN Security Council held an emergency meeting on Sunday, and Secretary-General António Guterres warned that further fighting had "the potential to unleash an uncontainable security and humanitarian crisis".
He pleaded for an immediate end to the "utterly appalling" violence.

Is Israel's military operation in Gaza, dubbed "Guardian of the Walls", nearing its conclusion?

Not obviously. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the attacks are continuing with "full force" and will "take time".
In a news conference on Sunday, he admitted there were "pressures" but thanked US President Joe Biden, in particular, for his support

While Gaza has a number of hospitals, and often well-trained and dedicated staff, equipment is often ageing and basic.

Among those who have raised urgent concerns has been the International Committee of the Red Cross, which has called on both sides to respect the urgent medical requirements of the people of Gaza. “In the past seven days in Gaza, we’ve seen extensive air strikes and also rockets going out from Gaza to Israel,” a spokesperson inside the coastal enclave told the Guardian

“There has been a massive destruction of infrastructure, including areas next to hospitals and damage to roads beside them. That’s why the ICRC called on leaders in the UN security council to exert influence on all parties, so that medical teams, ambulances and civil defence teams can access hospitals and injured people.

“In Gaza the health system was already facing serious problems of shortages of medicines, and the medical teams working through the escalation have already had a year of working through the pandemic.

“Medical staff were already exhausted and are now having to deal with a huge influx of injuries. Medical facilities are protected under international humanitarian law and should be respected by both parties, which includes allowing ambulance crews to access the injured.”

‘Can we not have a discussion board for things like this? Would rather hide these topics.’

Just don’t read the thread?? It’s not like there’s a hundred of them.
This is a MAJOR news story on the front of our papers, and all over the world, every single day.
Half a dozen or more countries are trying to broker a ceasefire, even more, including ours are condemning the civilian death toll.
The conflict is spilling out of the ME to other countries, and there have been protests all over the world including the U.K.

Sorry if you find it unpalatable but it is absolutely necessary to be able to discuss events like this.

As of May 16th, 52 children had lost their lives as a result of the Israeli government’s indiscriminate bombings. Last night, over 80 airstrikes were launched into Gaza within just 20 minutes, making it the deadliest night of airstrikes in over a week. I understand many people find this upsetting and want to desperately find a valid reason for the the Israeli government airstrikes (as many thought of Israel as a democratic, progressive country) but there are no arguments on this planet strong enough to justify this. Israeli soldiers are purposefully targeting refugee camps. This is state terrorism against oppressed people who cannot defend or protect themselves. Creating a narrative for both sides is always, without exception, for the benefit of the oppressor.

[quote ConfusedAdultFemale]@Frazzledfranny well I would assume all people find war unpalatable, considering the amount of pain and suffering that it causes. But for this thread specifically, the hate and abuse on it is what turns my stomach. I’m not going to weigh in on the situation in Palestine because I cannot find an independent source that isn’t steeped in emotion or prejudice to learn more about it. But I do know that hate, abuse, racism and antisemitism isn’t ok. Criticising Israeli leaders is one thing, but to criticise the whole Jewish population is wrong.[/quote]
Is there though? Where? I think people have gone to great pains to point out this isn’t an attack on Jewish people but the Israeli state.

I posted an unbiased video of what was happening up thread if you’d like me to repost it.

So because basically you don’t know enough about the situation you’ve come on to a thread to say it shouldn’t exist because you don’t know enough about it? 🥴

American double speak - again (BBC)

US President Joe Biden has voiced his support for a ceasefire after eight days of violence between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza.
Mr Biden told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the US was working with Egypt and other countries on halting hostilities.

But the US again blocked a UN Security Council statement calling for a cessation of violence

The conflict is now in its second week, with little sign of ending

As PP have said the whole region is a mess. The superpowers have been conducting the continuation of the Cold War in the region since the 90’s. (and meddling for more than a century before that- look at the history of Afghanistan in the 19th century). So many countries are meddling.
Britain supplies arms to Saudi Arabia who use them in Yeman. Russian backs Assad in Syria. The US backs Israel. Iran backs Hamas. The French deal with questionable regimes in North Africa. The Chinese are doing vast amounts of business in North Africa. Similarly the Gulf States are buying up industries in the region. Libya has been utterly destabilised.

The Israel /Palestinian conflict is being exploited by people with their own agendas - outside the region and within it. The current Israeli regime is politically weak so has moved to a hardline approach to prop themselves up. This had led to excessive force, provocation and land grabs - all of which are reprehensible.
Hamas has a stated aim of destroying the state Israel and is indiscriminately bombing Israel putting all Israelis at risk: Jewish, Christian, Muslim and any other belief. This is also reprehensible.
In the middle of this are terrified adults and children on both sides who seem not to count. Ordinary people who are deemed expendable in the greater cause - it is vile and shameful and it is fuelling the hate.

My view is there has to be a regionally agreed two state solution. The Israelis and Palestinians have to be allowed to find a solution that works for them - they need to find a way to speak with one voice to the meddling powers from outside - to say this is what we have agreed and you will respect it. Our people with not continue dying to suit your purposes.

I don’t see apologies or reparations as part of this process. That is not to say borders won’t move and land won’t be returned. I just think that trying to fix all the wrongs of the past will block progress, the priority has to be fixing the present to secure the future.

[quote Yawnattack]@PollyPaintsFlowers, According to some here the UN is an antisemitic organisation are we to acknowledge them as impartial and therefore capable of verification when you like what they say and antisemitic when you dont.

Could you perhaps answer my question, is the stated aim of the Israeli government to destroy Palestine. From the outside it certainly looks that way.[/quote]
Is the stated aim of the Israeli government to destroy Palestine?

Not that I am aware of, no.

If you have proof that that is stated to be the case, then post it.

As far as I am aware, the Israeli government is keen to reduce Hamas' military capabilities and Netanyahu personally is keen to stay in power.

Likewise, the Palestinian leadership is also keen to stay in power.

In both cases, this current conflict is very advantageous for them personally, as it is likely to allow Netanyahu to remain as PM and the PA to postpone elections.

However, there is proof that Hamas does aim at global genocide of the Jews, and this is explicitly stated in the Hamas charter. This is why they are labelled as a terrorist organisation. There is no circumstance under which they would consider a two-state solution or a one-state solution alongside Jews.

This is the problem and you can make ad hominem attacks on me as much as you like but it will not help bring peace to a horrible situation for civilians in both sides.

As I said at the start, both sides need better leaders. You can call me hateful for saying this if you wish. It just makes you look weirdly pro-genocide.

Good posts, @ChazsBrilliantAttitude and @piddocktrumperiness

Good to have some actual suggestions for peace mentioned.

The aim then should be to empower ordinary Palestinians to marginalise Hamas so that a two state solution becomes possible? How does bombing Palestinians achieve this?

Many ME experts think that the chance for a 2 state solution has gone, and that the one state solution is the only real viable one. A federation of sorts.

I don’t see apologies or reparations as part of this process. That is not to say borders won’t move and land won’t be returned. I just think that trying to fix all the wrongs of the past will block progress, the priority has to be fixing the present to secure the future.

Why does progress in this situation have to involve Palestinians quietly accepting decades of subjugation, ethnic cleansing, apartheid and persecution? I know it’s very inconvenient for Israel to have to acknowledge the suffering it has caused to millions but that should not mean that they don’t have a responsibility to fix and take accountability for all the wrongs of the past, just as many other countries have had to do throughout history. Why is Israel any different?

CounsellorTroi

The aim then should be to empower ordinary Palestinians to marginalise Hamas so that a two state solution becomes possible? How does bombing Palestinians achieve this?

Exactly

The Israeli state is currently bombing refugee camps, hospitals, roads leading to hospitals, schools, residential areas, international media towers, COVID facilities, innocent children, women and men. This is terrorism. Why are Hamas always regarded as a terrorist organisation whereas Israel is to always be regarded as the Israeli government/state, so not to conflate with the country’s citizens (understandable) but never with any reference of the acts of terror it carries out? Israel is currently conducting state terrorism against Palestinians on a daily basis and needs to be addressed as such.

@GoingOnABarHunt

I don’t see apologies or reparations as part of this process. That is not to say borders won’t move and land won’t be returned. I just think that trying to fix all the wrongs of the past will block progress, the priority has to be fixing the present to secure the future.

Why does progress in this situation have to involve Palestinians quietly accepting decades of subjugation, ethnic cleansing, apartheid and persecution? I know it’s very inconvenient for Israel to have to acknowledge the suffering it has caused to millions but that should not mean that they don’t have a responsibility to fix and take accountability for all the wrongs of the past, just as many other countries have had to do throughout history. Why is Israel any different?

It’s a good question. Why is it different? Anyone with any real interest in peace understands the need to leave behind grievances. How far back do you go? Should the site of the Temple be restored? Clearly not if there is any hope of a move forward. Mandela understood it, leaders in Rwanda have understood it and those involved in the peace process in Ireland understood it..

@Menoismymate I agree it's very difficult to feel optimistic about the prospects for a two-state solution given where both sides are at right now, and the leaders they have.

But the problem with simply going 'a federation/one state solution is the only option' is that Israelis (and the rest of the world's Jews) can get a bit funny about it, strangely, what with the fact that it calls for the destruction of their existing state.

Even if we all accept, as I think most on this thread do, that injustices have been perpetrated against the Palestinians by successive Israeli governments, you have to stop and ask yourself why Israel is the only - literally the only - country in the world, whose very existence is questioned when they do a bad thing. I have literally never heard progressive voices calling for the destruction of any other state, even states that have committed an assortment of horrific crimes against humanity.

Why do you think that is?

GoingonaBarHunt

Simply because I don’t think there will ever be a solution if you start the process by requiring an apology. I am being brutally pragmatic. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, Palestinians have been wronged, Israelis have been wronged - if the focus is on apportioning blame then the hawks on both sides will refuse to engage.

I doubt the Queen wanted to shake hands with Martin McGuinness but she still did it.

I mean, FFS, Germany, Austria, Poland, et al all continued to exist after they committed actual genocide during WW2. There are a number of ways to remove existing regimes/governments and punish them for crimes against humanity (if indeed the world agrees such have taken place) without saying 'oh well let's just cancel your entire country.'

Obsessive focus with the destruction of Israel only is anti-semitism. That isn't deflection or name calling - it's a fact as established by the IHRA definition. And we will continue to call it out wherever we see it.

@GoingOnABarHunt

The Israeli state is currently bombing refugee camps, hospitals, roads leading to hospitals, schools, residential areas, international media towers, COVID facilities, innocent children, women and men. This is terrorism. Why are Hamas always regarded as a terrorist organisation whereas Israel is to always be regarded as the Israeli government/state, so not to conflate with the country’s citizens (understandable) but never with any reference of the acts of terror it carries out? Israel is currently conducting state terrorism against Palestinians on a daily basis and needs to be addressed as such.

Exactly, when the Israeli Government does it it’s air strikes, when Hamas does it it’s terrorism. Sickening double standards.

Mandela understood it, leaders in Rwanda have understood it and those involved in the peace process in Ireland understood it.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission was assembled in South Africa after the end of apartheid. Reparations have been paid to victims. Apologies were made by subsequent governments.

A significant number of perpetrators of the Rwanda genocide have been bought to justice, including former high-level government officials. The country has very little resources but still set up a (imperfect, but still existing) reparations system.

Governments can be held accountable, fighting for the justice of the oppressed isn’t a new phenomena.

Since the establishment of the State of Israel, Palestinians have been wronged, Israelis have been wronged

There aren’t two equal sides to this, the State of Israel has oppressed Palestinians for decades and continues to do so by carrying out ethnic cleansing and genocide. Before progress can be made, the Israeli state needs to be held accountable for the suffering of millions.

@CounsellorTroi

The aim then should be to empower ordinary Palestinians to marginalise Hamas so that a two state solution becomes possible? How does bombing Palestinians achieve this?

It doesn't.

I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing it does, or that Netanyahu is trying to achieve peace.

And equally, Hamas firing 2000+ rockets at Israeli civilians is not going to bring about peace either.

I think we've agree that neither set of leaders is interested in bringing about peace.

The question is what will achieve that?