Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

@lessthanaballpark - I would very much hope that if Indians felt the need to all come to Europe following a genocide during which two thirds of their kind were killed, in India, Europe would help to find them a home.

What do you mean you can't believe Britain ever thought was acceptable @Lessthanaballpark ?

Britain has been doing this sort of thing for centuries.

The numbers of posters here who are willing to talk about historic injustices done without even considering why Europe's Jews might feel the need for a different homeland is... truly quite something.

200 Palestinians dead now. Almost half women and children.

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@anemona

You make some valid points in your thread but have been desperately unfair by claiming thread rife with anti-semitism (which I dispute) but ignoring the racism and Islamophobia.

Several pro-Israelis in this thread have proposed resettling the Gazans in Europe. Encouraging them to move away from their pitiful lives. Do you agree with that?

If I had suggested the same but for Israeli Jews, what would you have said?

And not one pro-Israeli has addressed the issue of the League of Nations mandate for Palestine which was designed by British amd Zionists to create a Jewish homeland in land that was already occupied by indigenous people - the Palestinians. This is colonisation. Until this is acknowledged, then it will be impossible to move forward.[/quote]
Happy to agree that I do not support (compulsory) resettlement for Gazans in Europe, or anywhere else ( though I think the poster who mentioned the idea was not proposing that either, but rather offering Palestinians the option of asylum/a new start in the UK if they wanted it, not as a compulsory resettlement?).

The problem with your next paragraph is that it is, again, typically one-sided, in that it refers to the Palestinians as indigenous but ignores the fact that the Jews are ALSO indigenous to the land, and that this, indeed is the root of the whole problem. To pretend that history started in 1948, or that there was no history of Jewish settlement in or links to the land pre-1948 is both dishonest and frankly ridiculous. The historical and archaeological record of Jewish settlement in what is now the State if Israel is vast. It's not possible not to know that Muslims were the settlers who came and moved into a territory that was indigenous Jewish territory - the Dome of the Rock is built on top of the Jews' holiest site, the Temple Mount!

That is not to say that modern-day Palestinians don't have valid claims to the land too, but claims of Israel being a 'settler-colonial' state are blatantly nonsensical and ahistorical.

As I said above, peace will only be reached when the valid claims of both sides and the need for security for both sides are met. The more the Pakestinian side digs in its heels and tries to pretend that the rights and safety of nearly 7 million Israelis can be ignored, the less likely it is that the leaders of those 7 million Israelis will agree to any kind of peace deal with the other side.

I put it to you, and to all those arguing for the Palestinian side - if the shoe was on the other foot, would YOU want your leaders to make peace with a terrorist regime whose founding charter explicitly states it desires the death of all Jews? Whose chant, From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free, explicitly states it wants to leave Israelis no territory at all? Who are raining down over 200 long-range rockets on densely-populated Israeli towns and cities every day, with absolutely no attempt to reduce civilian casualties? Indeed, who are deliberately aiming at as many civilian casualties as possible, a war crime? Who reward the families of those who die in suicide bombings where they successfully murder Jewish civilians with large pensions and honours for life?

Would you? Would you really, in that situation go 'Oh yes, I totally trust Hamas to power share and not to try to murder me'?

Because I wouldn't.

I have not seen any suggestions here that Israel does not have a right to exist if that is the definition then we are all pro Israeli.

Some people here seem to consider any objections to the current actions of the Israeli government as antisemitic or that the poster doesn't think Israel has a right to exist to try to shut down any discussions on the topic.

Regarding the Israeli government's attempts to kill Hamas leaders I think they killed all of the ones they knew about in the first couple of days and the continuing bombardment is to punish the people living in Gaza using the justification that they are bombing us.

@Adventureswith

‘ Why do you think Israel destroyed the press building otherwise? ’

Censorship. To try to hamper the reportage coming out of the area. Which seems to be the general consensus in the world press but was my first thought anyway. Cut electric, hamper WiFi and communications, get rid of the offices of many of the media in the area... and on and on.

It might be true, but not sure if it was worth the outcry. I don’t think media organizations will leave because the building is destroyed, hopefully they are committed to report on this story.

I think the continued bombardment is to punish Hamas indirectly in that it will make the public opinion in Gaza turn against the strategy of shooting rockets.

It is the same reason as they have for destruction of Hamas leaders homes.

Basically they are saying-if you shoot at Israel we will make everyone in Gaza suffer, and specifically your family. By the way I think they explicitly tell this in messages to Hamas members and so on...

@anemona

If you go back to my earlier posts on this and the first thread you will see I have specifically mentioned the existence of Jews in Israel pre British Mandate. It’s just that they were very much in the minority (5% late 19th century).

Please read the comments I have made before making untruthful statements about what I have said.

I am so angry at Keir Starmer. Millions around the world have demonstrated for Palestine over the weekend and the only thing he has tweeted is something about how disgusting those four pricks in London in the video were. He is conniving in smearing the entire movement.

And that is without considering what truly dreadful leaders both Hamas and Netanyahu are. Neither side are helping their respected peoples. Netanyahu is a crook who is clinging onto power by any means possible. Hamas have refused to allow any elections since 2005 and regularly murder gay men and anyone they suspect might have collaborated with Israel. Both sides encourage the worst, most murderous and racist impulses of their respective sides. Both skim off huge amounts of money for private personal gain; in the case of Hamas, also spending billions on aid money not on the hospitals, schools, housing and infrastructure for which it was given, but on sending Palestinian children to build terror tunnels to murder Israeli civilians and on rockets to do the same.

If what you care about is helping the Palestinians (rather than, as in the case of those so-called Palestinian activists who drove through Jewish areas of London yesterday threatening to rape Jewish women and chikdren, merely hurting the Jews), then you will be focusing on how best to get rid of and weaken both sets of leaders (who feed off each other) and to bring in some fresh and non-corrupt leadership who truly represent what I believe is still the will of the majority on both sides, to have peace and some kind of negotiated settlement.

Peace will only come when each side recognises the humanity and rights of the other.

‘ I have not seen any suggestions here that Israel does not have a right to exist if that is the definition then we are all pro Israeli.’

Absolutely agree with this, ‘antisemitism’ is the argument trotted out for any criticism of the Israeli state, but it just doesn’t.hold water.
I disagree with with many, many of the US policies abroad, but I’m not anti American. I’m a northern Irish Catholic who thought that many of the U.K. government policies in my country were wrong and illegal, but I’m not anti British.
We need to hold leaders of countries accountable. And watching the Apartheid in the ME makes me just as angry and frustrated as the one in South Africa did.

@BlackForestCake

I am so angry at Keir Starmer. Millions around the world have demonstrated for Palestine over the weekend and the only thing he has tweeted is something about how disgusting those four pricks in London in the video were. He is conniving in smearing the entire movement.

That's darkly funny

As British Jews are likewise furious with Keir Starmer for only posting a very one-sided statement prior to yesterday in which he told Israeli leaders to stop attacking Gaza but mentioned nothing all about the 2000+rockets raining down on Israeli civilians.

And has since only mentioned the threats against British Jews after Boris Johnson did, but has still said not a word about the threats against Israeli Jews.

How amusing that his attempt to please everyone has ended up pleasing no-one. As supporters of the Palestinian side clearly missed his first message.

By the way talking about giving Palestinians a chance to leave - no categorically I never said it should be mandatory.

But I think our objective should be realistic. I don’t believe Israel is going to give back the houses in the villages of 1940s no matter how many rockets are fired. It would just destroy more of Gaza.

So maybe we should have realistic objectives. People who don’t want to stay in Gaza should have a chance to leave. And I am only saying it because the situation there is horrific for many.

People who do want to stay should negotiate with Israel starting from accepting its right to exist and it’s borders...

@Adventureswith

‘ I have not seen any suggestions here that Israel does not have a right to exist if that is the definition then we are all pro Israeli.’

Absolutely agree with this, ‘antisemitism’ is the argument trotted out for any criticism of the Israeli state, but it just doesn’t.hold water.
I disagree with with many, many of the US policies abroad, but I’m not anti American. I’m a northern Irish Catholic who thought that many of the U.K. government policies in my country were wrong and illegal, but I’m not anti British.
We need to hold leaders of countries accountable. And watching the Apartheid in the ME makes me just as angry and frustrated as the one in South Africa did.

You may be pro-the existence of Israel (which is the definition of Zionism, so congratulations, everyone on this thread is therefore a Zionist, I am pleased to say) but it is safe to say that the Palestinian leaders are NOT.

Unfortunately, as the Israelis have to make peace with Hamas and the PA, not with the people on this thread, that does not help us much, unless you are rather more influential than I suspect, and are able to change the Hamas charter so it no longer calls for the global genocide of all Jews, for example.

Seeing the Palestinian leadership through rose-tinted glasses helps no-one. They are internationally proscribed terrorists for a reason.

Apartheid exists every bit as much or more on the Palestinian side as on the Jewish side, if it exists at all (and no, I don't think the term can usefully be used in this context, FWIW).

And that is not to say that Netanyahu isn't also a dreadful corrupt racist, btw.

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@anemona

If you go back to my earlier posts on this and the first thread you will see I have specifically mentioned the existence of Jews in Israel pre British Mandate. It’s just that they were very much in the minority (5% late 19th century).

Please read the comments I have made before making untruthful statements about what I have said.[/quote]
⁰⁰0p

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@anemona

If you go back to my earlier posts on this and the first thread you will see I have specifically mentioned the existence of Jews in Israel pre British Mandate. It’s just that they were very much in the minority (5% late 19th century).

Please read the comments I have made before making untruthful statements about what I have said.[/quote]
Sorry, message fail there!

I would be interested in seeing the source for the 5% figure you quote, and if correct, the composition of the remaining 95%.

I am also sceptical about your picking one date out of all the thousands of years of history pre-1948 as the relevant date.

How big was the Jewish population in 1947? In the 1920s, 1930s, 1800, 1700, the Middle Ages etc etc. No one date pre-1948 is more or less relevant than any others.

And I am sceptical about your 5% figure.

But let's see the proof.

Let's also see some proof for the origins of the Pakestinian population.

Thanks.

@Lessthanaballpark

Also, I'd like to point out that there were long-settled Jewish communities living in Palestine long before political Zionism came into existence. Yes, there was an Arab majority, but there had been a continuous Jewish presence.

Yes. There are many long-settled Indian or Pakistani communities in the UK. Yet I doubt very much that we’d accept it if wholesale migration meant that Indians took over our institutions, took our land and placed us under siege in East London.

I can’t believe that Britain ever thought this would be acceptable.

That is the most dishonest comparison and you know it.

Jews were in Israel long before Islam was created. The historical and archaeological record for continuous Jewish settlement of the land for thousands of years, despite attempts to expel Jews from the land repeatedly by Romans and others, is vast and clear.

It is laughable - and frankly racist - to compare that link to the land with that of recent Indian immigrants to the UK, who settled here for the first time only within living memory.

You are not a serious poster.

Also @Adventureswith, if you're going to keep denying anti-semitism on this thread, I'd avoid a few clear red flags like calling Israel an 'apartheid state'. This is offensive to both Israelis and, I would guess, black people who lived in apartheid South Africa. I'd educate yourself on the differences between modern day Israel and apartheid South Africa before lazily throwing this around.

None of the above means that the Israelis have not committed an injustice towards the Palestinians and are continuing to do so. Just as the British did wrong in Ireland but Northern Ireland, and that was also not 'an apartheid state'.

In sensitive debates like this, words really matter.

Why should Jews leave Israel? Over half the Jews that live there are descended from Jews displaced from the Arab world. Most of them are third or fourth generation Israelis and telling them to go back to Europe is as racist as telling third generation Pakistanis to go back to Pakistan. They were literallly never European and they have no homes to go back to as the majority were kicked out of Arab states (and I know lots of people whose families were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries and had their land and property stolen). It's a myth that most Jews had a choice to leave.

'Yesterday, amid international calls for a ceasefire, Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu said the assault on Gaza would continue with “full force” and would take a little longer. Airstrikes on Gaza overnight were some of the heaviest yet, hitting Hamas facilities and homes, but also damaging main roads and power lines.'

BBC.

Wondering if Netanyahu is going to stop just before Gaza runs out power in a couple of days which would be a catastrophe for the hospitals?

'Why should Jews leave Israel?'

They shouldn't, obvs. But nor should the Israeli state be treating the Palestinians in OPT as less than human.

Apartheid is now a legally recognized crime against humanity - see below, HRW, but you'll find many other references to the use if the word now outside of the SA context.
I don't have any issue with using the word where it seems that the definition fits.

"The international community has over the years detached the term apartheid from its original South African context, developed a universal legal prohibition against its practice, and recognized it as a crime against humanity with definitions provided in the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (“Apartheid Convention”) and the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The State of Palestine is a state party to both the Rome Statute and the Apartheid Convention. In February 2021, the ICC ruled that it has jurisdiction over serious international crimes committed in the entirety of the OPT, including East Jerusalem, which would include the crimes against humanity of apartheid or persecution committed in that territory. In March 2021, the ICC Office of Prosecutor announced the opening of a formal investigation into the situation in Palestine.'

The BBC reporting it may be coming to an end 'Local reports suggest Hamas has been offering some kind of ceasefire for several days, only to be rebuffed by Israel, which clearly wants to inflict as much damage as it can on the militants before the fighting is finally brought to a close.

These episodes follow a familiar pattern: Israel presses home its undoubted military advantage until the international outcry over civilian casualties, and a deteriorating humanitarian situation in Gaza, demand that the operation end.

In Israel's estimation, we have not reached that point yet.'

With Gaza running out of power soon that's got to be the point where the international community finally says 'enough?' Before the hospitals fo dark?

Israel is an apartheid state.

Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.

www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

And many South Africans are, understandably, absolutely disgusted by the actions of the Israeli government:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogkbe4AuuMY