You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

I grew up in an area of London with v large orthodox population. They would often burn the Israeli flag.
I think they believe the Jewish people remain stateless until the end of time. That it’s part of their struggle and they should not try to achieve a homeland again and that it’s blasphemy to do so...? I’m sure someone will explain it better.
They’re a very conservative and insular people not prone to integrating or talking to outsiders but perfectly amenable. They were our neighbours and the mosque and synagogue a few houses apart with no issues. It’s an area of London where
Muslims and Orthodox Jews have lived side by side for decades.

Jewish Voice for Peace

jewishvoiceforpeace.org/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101/

YANBU OP.

I wonder if I can just take a fancy to a home and land somewhere, chuck the owners out and say it's mine now, go on piss off to a settlement somewhere.

Then expect those I've displaced to just shut up about it and quietly go away

@Sadsiblingatsea

And yet no criticism about China for human rights abuses in Tibet and destroying their entire culture. Are the Chinese not Jewish enough? So many human rights abuses in the world and yet OP and others always focus on Israel. So yes, it does feel anti Semitic.

That’s a bit of a sweeping generalisation isn’t it? Always a good tactic when someone doesn’t have much to defend themselves with. You have no idea what causes the Op cares about.

I care about the Uighur people in China. It’s horrifying.

Also care about Palestinians.
Also care about Israeli people who want to live in peace but can’t because Palestinians are being abused and oppressed.

(One thing I would love to see the end of, now and forever, is the damned arms trade. Always you hear of Britain’s arms trade, everywhere.)

@SofiaMichelle
'The close relationship between the U.S. and Israel has been one of the most salient features in U.S. foreign policy for nearly three and a half decades. The well over $3 billion in military and economic aid sent annually to Israel by Washington is rarely questioned in Congress, even by liberals who normally challenge U.S. aid to governments that engage in widespread violations of human rights–or by conservatives who usually oppose foreign aid in general. Virtually all Western countries share the United States’ strong support for Israel’s legitimate right to exist in peace and security, yet these same nations have refused to provide arms and aid while the occupation of lands seized in the 1967 war continues. None come close to offering the level of diplomatic support provided by Washington–with the United States often standing alone with Israel at the United Nations and other international forums when objections are raised over ongoing Israeli violations of international law and related concerns.'

That came from ips-dc.org/why_the_us_supports_israel/

Article is from 2002
I think the Palestinians should move for their own sakes.
In Irealnd the Protestants still celebrate King Billy and the battle of the Boyne, The orange marches etc The battle was 1690- still it is celebrated when I'm sure if it had been allowed to pass into history life in Ireland might have been simpler.
Likewise Bannockburn and the Scots v English.
These are to make my point that perpetuating anger and hatred isn't the best way whoever is right or wrong.
Apparently there were 250,000 displaced Jews after the War, some couldn't return home as there were still progroms going on in some places. They wanted to go to Israel.
What would you do with 250,000 misplaced persons. Many went to the US. It's right to criticise the decision to let them go to Israel but - again where would you send them?
encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-aftermath-of-the-holocaust

Also the Jews were the victims of the war - not the perpetrators - would you have wanted them in never-closing refugee camps for decades?

I am Jewish but even I find it hard to put this into a meaningful historical perspective. There are many who know far far more than I do. However, most are clearly biased one way or another.

The way Israel have behaved recently is awful BUT I would challenge anyone to come up with a roadmap for Israel that would not either bc seen as apartheid or put its citizens in harms way.

Firstly, most ‘Palestinians’ did not originally come from modern Israel but Jordan. The majority of Palestine was on the Jordanian side. Strangely, despite the Jordanians keeping their Palestinians in refugee camps in appalling conditions (those they have not expelled), there is no international protest nor any desire of Palestinians to return to Jordan.

A second fact is that the kleptocracy run by Yasser Arafat was given an excellent chance for a two state solution. The Palestinians were offered 90% of what they wanted. Arafat turning this down (probably because he found it easier to steal his people’s money under occupation) allowed Hamas to be elected.

Hamas’s averred aim is the destruction of the state of Israel. Would we negotiate with a power who wanted to, with powerful allies, destroy us.

Israel is always in a state of fear. They are a tiny country and, although they are sponsored by the US, and militarily powerful, they know it is a matter of time before an Arab country goes nuclear. And, given their tiny geographical size, that is terrifying for them.

Israel also has a demographic problem. The Jews will inevitably, over time, become outnumbered by Moslems. So, does the Jewish state remain entirely democratic and become a Moslem state?!

There are many religious nutters on both sides of this argument and also international players continually stirring the pot. I feel sorry for all who live in that area.

The State of Israel does exist, however and, whilst I agree criticising its actions is not anti-Semitic, I do think saying it does not have the right to exist does cross that line.

• What Palestine needs is meaningful support. They need the international community to stand up and say "Enough".

However, Israel has powerful friends who will never do that. They turn a blind eye.*

And Nuclear weapons and weapons of mass destruction. So much about appeasing the Israeli state has been about keeping them stable, they could do a lot of damage in the M.E. if they chose to.

@Sadsiblingatsea

And yet no criticism about China for human rights abuses in Tibet and destroying their entire culture. Are the Chinese not Jewish enough? So many human rights abuses in the world and yet OP and others always focus on Israel. So yes, it does feel anti Semitic.

This is demonstrably ridiculous comment. There have been loads of threads on this board alone about those specific conflicts. Other conflicts too. You are claiming anti-semitism because there are uncomfortable truths on this thread that you don't like hearing.

Denial doesn't change facts.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

“Firstly, most ‘Palestinians’ did not originally come from modern Israel but Jordan. The majority of Palestine was on the Jordanian side”

This is wrong. After the Ottoman Empire was defeated, Palestine became controlled by the British and Transjordan (which was renamed Jordan in 1949) was a new state created by the British. Before this the entire area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. So Palestinians are those from Palestine - not from Transjordan.

The Palestinians lived in Palestine. Most were very poor fellahin (peasants) who rented land from landowners. Many of the landowners (who were Arabs) didn’t live in the land but were happy to sell to the growing incoming Jewish population (who unlike usual refugees/immigrants had substantial capital). The fellahin were usually then thrown off the land by the new owners.

Because the British wanted to create the Zionist state so they had greater security over the Suez, the rules they established in the British mandate were biased heavily towards the growing Jewish population. Indeed the first High Commissioner of Palestine was Herbert Samuel a British politician who was not only Jewish but a committed Zionist.

Your narrative of “there were no Palestinians in Palestine” was successfully used by Zionists for many years but has now been absolutely disproven.

I think the people of Israel - Jews and Palestinians - deserve to live in peace. And they should remain in the region but I think it is also needs to be recognised that With British and subsequently American help the Zionists were able to create Israel at the expense of Palestinians that it is absolutely not anti-Semitic to question whether they had a right to do this in the first place.

(The fact that Israel, with support of USA, continues to defy UN resolutions requiring them to return some of the appropriated land to the Palestinians is very telling.)

There is no solution to this. World leaders can’t intervene for the same reason they can’t with what’s going on in China. Any intervention would end up sparking a war, which would end up as another world war, and you’d just end up with millions dying. World leaders need to consider the safety of their own people before they intervene in another countries doing

@Quincie there were also something like 800,000 displaced Jews who were expelled from surrounding Arab countries when Israel was created. There are almost no Jewish people in Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Morocco etc, even though they had been in established communities for centuries before. Many of those people went to Israel because they had no other choice.

The history can be compared to when India became independent and Pakistan was created, which also led to many people being displaced and dying.

I feel so sorry for the ordinary Israelis and Palestinians caught up in a war that is unlikely to have a peaceful solution in the near future. With the current leaders in Gaza and Israel (Hamas and Likud) nothing is going to change while extremists are in charge.

,And yet no criticism about China for human rights abuses in Tibet and destroying their entire culture. Are the Chinese not Jewish enough?
So many human rights abuses in the world and yet OP and others always focus on Israel.
So yes, it does feel anti Semitic.'

That's the problem isn't it? According to Amnesty and the UN and the Red Cross and Save the Children and others who deal with human rights Israel systematically disregards international law and mistreats the Palestinians in the Occupied territories, killing civilians at will.

But as soon as the Israeli government is criticised for their actions people pop out to claim it anti-semitic to call them out on obvious and glaring human rights abuses.

I'm more than capable of distinguishing between the actions of a government, supported by many of its people, and Jewish people as a whole. I know many Israelis who would happily see the Palestinians 'relocated' and the Occupied Territories filled with Jewish people instead, but I also know many Jewish friends outside of Israel who are as horrified as the rest of the world at the actions of the government there.

there were also something like 800,000 displaced Jews who were expelled from surrounding Arab countries when Israel was created

That is wrong. 800,000 Palestinians were forcibly removed from there homes during the 1948 war. After this there was a gradual exodus of Jews from surrounding Arab countries (they were NOT expelled) as they wanted to live in Israel.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

And fun fact, the Iranian parliament has one seat reserved exclusively for a Jewish person. Since 1906. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Motamed

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]there were also something like 800,000 displaced Jews who were expelled from surrounding Arab countries when Israel was created

That is wrong. 800,000 Palestinians were forcibly removed from there homes during the 1948 war. After this there was a gradual exodus of Jews from surrounding Arab countries (they were NOT expelled) as they wanted to live in Israel.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

And fun fact, the Iranian parliament has one seat reserved exclusively for a Jewish person. Since 1906. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Motamed[/quote]
Ok, the very first line of your wiki link mentions expulsion

'The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries, or Jewish exodus from Arab countries, was the departure, flight, expulsion, evacuation and migration of 850,000 Jews,[1][2] primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab countries and the Muslim world, mainly from 1948 to the early 1970s. The last major migration wave took place from Iran in 1979–80, as a consequence of the Iranian Revolution.'

'There is no solution to this.'

That's just not true. There seemed no solution to the NI Troubles, but there was one, it's just not very palatable to many Israelis or Arabs because it means mutual respect, sitting down at a table with what each side consider terrorists , and huge compromises on either side.

Israel has no real incentives to sit down and compromise, the day to day life of most Israelis is fairly comfortable - despite the rocket attacks which rarely reach the major cities anyway.

It's a very typical case of a militarily stronger entity taking resources and land from weaker neighbors. As English people we've done the same, so it should be very familiar for us. Livy summed it up best by claiming that Rome conquered the world in self-defence.

You'd hope that people would have better ways of resolving these things, but it's just not the case there. What the Israelis are doing there is deliberate, awful, etc. But I fear for what will inevitably happen to them as a result further down the line.

If only something like what happened in NI, or former Yugoslavia coudl happen there. It's far from ideal, but so much better than what is happening today.

@IShouldProbablyHooverMore

Along with several other reasons which means that 800,000 Jews were not expelled - as you had claimed. The article is entitled the “exodus”. mass expulsion. Further, Israel automatically gives citizen rights to any Jew born anywhere, so if these Jews were expelled, the did not become stateless - they were not refugees.

Unlike the Palestinians.

Europe and the US have historically demonstrated far more ant-semitism for centuries culminating in the rise of nazism (which of course initially not all in Britain spoke out against - including papers like the Daily Mail).

And Israel doesn’t contain its violence against Arabs to its own borders. Look what the IDF did to southern Lebanon and Beirut in its pursuit of the Palestinians.

So no, there was absolutely not an expulsion of 800,000 Jews from the Middle East countries post 1948. That is gross misrepresentation.

Western media are not showing what’s truly happening right now. It’s beyond heartbreaking. There’s no justification for what’s currently going on.

If someone turned up in our country and told us it was now their country and we no longer have any rights, if we get kicked out of our ancestral homes so they can move in, if they start abusing and beating us without reason, would we stand by or would we retaliate?

www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@IShouldProbablyHooverMore

Along with several other reasons which means that 800,000 Jews were not expelled - as you had claimed. The article is entitled the “exodus”. mass expulsion. Further, Israel automatically gives citizen rights to any Jew born anywhere, so if these Jews were expelled, the did not become stateless - they were not refugees.

Unlike the Palestinians.

Europe and the US have historically demonstrated far more ant-semitism for centuries culminating in the rise of nazism (which of course initially not all in Britain spoke out against - including papers like the Daily Mail).

And Israel doesn’t contain its violence against Arabs to its own borders. Look what the IDF did to southern Lebanon and Beirut in its pursuit of the Palestinians.

So no, there was absolutely not an expulsion of 800,000 Jews from the Middle East countries post 1948. That is gross misrepresentation.[/quote]
I didn't say there was an expulsion of 800,000 Jews from Arabs countries. I pointed out that you intimated NO Jews were expelled, then referenced a Wikipedia article which clearly states that Jews were expelled.

@IShouldProbablyHooverMore

You literally said exactly that at 08:05 this morning:

there were also something like 800,000 displaced Jews who were expelled from surrounding Arab countries when Israel was created

@IconUcon which actually backs up what I said - there is no solution to this. If your only solution is to have two groups of people show mutual respect and understanding, which neither of them is willing to do, then it’s not a solution. The world cannot intervene because a world war would be more devastating than sitting doing nothing. No one wants a world war.

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@IShouldProbablyHooverMore

You literally said exactly that at 08:05 this morning:

there were also something like 800,000 displaced Jews who were expelled from surrounding Arab countries when Israel was created[/quote]
No I literally didn't. Someone else literally did.