to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

i dont think 2 penises in a vagina would cause any more damage than a baby coming out of it

Elizabetth, I'm quite willing to accept that people do want progressively harder porn. That isn't much different to fashion designers wanting thinner models to sell their products (causing more problems with eating disorders) and the like. You seem to be missing the point though that just because some porn is 'extreme' doesn't mean it is all bad. This is why I personally would like to see more regulation in the industry. I also think that what consenting adults do (whether it's intimate, private sex or having rough sex while being filmed and putting it on the web for people to see) is something that should not be censored.

Thanks kittock, the dirty buggers

I haven't seen gang rape in any of the maistream porn I've looked at. I have seen, acted scenes of coersion into a multi man/woman sex session

do you call it gang rape because you don't think any woman would have a gang bang without force or are you talking true acted rape scenes? (ie pure force)

I've happily taken part in a 'gangbang' or 2, and not through any partner, I've instigated it and have had somefun times

As said before, what you class as maistream porn isn't that mainstream, it's specialist/fetishist. Your basic user of porn is just looking for boobs, bums and basic sex (to me intercourse, oral and anal) and some fantasy (mild/med bondage, s & m etc) I personally like gay porn (male or female) Who is getting degraded there?

(Elizabetth, I think for someone who hates porn so much, you have seen more than the average user, which I find bemusing)

DBSS I thought it was one in each hole? Am I wrong?

I thought double penetration was one in vagine, one in arse...then double anal was 2 in arse and double vaginal was 2 in vagina...anyway...

I don't see what difference it make how rough it is as long as the people are happy to do it.

oh and dp in the vagina doesn't do any damage (but getting into a position to enable might! lol)

Elizabetth - "the old question technique"??

You clearly would like to see something done about pornography. I genuinely asked you the question in the hope that we could move this thread onto a more contructive footing.

I'm also not entirely sure that we're all debating the same thing as you haven't defined pornography and clearly the word encompasses a huge range of activities from the benign to the criminal. I hoped that this might become clearer from your answer about what measures should be taken.

As this thread has proved so popular, I'm afraid your suggestions as to what to actually do about pornography have got submerged. I think it would be helpful for everyone if you could restate them.

I think it's a question of values, the lines have blurred. The extreme mainstream stuff is a bit worrying. How much further will it go and where do you draw the line? Who indeed is drawing these lines?

Rebelmum - IMO, the lines should be drawn at what people are willing (i.e. happy) to do, whether it's for fun (amateurs wanting to show themselves on the web) or for a job where people are getting paid.

Please reread the thread, Kittock. It's there.

As soon as I brought up the contents of actual pornography i.e what is really happening and what is being defended here, you tried to change the subject. It was noticeable.

AngryLittleMummy, finally someone who is prepared to address what is actually going on rather than a constructed fantasy of what the porn industry really is and what most porn users are actually watching.

What does it say about male porn users that gagging, gang bangs (mock gang rape scenarios), double penetrations (which definitely do damage women's bodies depsite the callous claims to the contrary) are what they want to watch?

I haven't asked many questions on this thread although I've answered quite a few so that question is for all the porn defenders on here.

Yes that's true, similarly with prostitutes, if they are happy and not coerced, no one is being hurt or are 'happy' to be hurt, then how can you say it is wrong. You would need some evidence that watching porn leads to sex crimes against unwilling victims.

Elizabetth - forgot to say - on this stuff not being "the extreme end of the market", the director you quoted actually described the gonzo market as "the extreme market", which is probably why I described it as such.

I would also, again quite genuinely, like to know your feelings about gay porn, as clearly this has many of the same elements but doesn't involve women so would make a useful comparison.

How did I try to change the subject Elizabetth?

"Elizabetth, I'm quite willing to accept that people do want progressively harder porn."

"Harder" is a eumphemism. What we are talking about is porn that is increasingly damaging and humiliating to women. How much more degrading can you get than someone having a penis forced inside their throat until they gag and vomit.

"That isn't much different to fashion designers wanting thinner models to sell their products (causing more problems with eating disorders) and the like."

And that's a real problem too. Not sure what it has to do with this discussion though.

"You seem to be missing the point though that just because some porn is 'extreme' doesn't mean it is all bad."

You seem to be in complete denial that the extremely violent, degrading and damging porn is what is mainstream and what consumers demand.

"This is why I personally would like to see more regulation in the industry. I also think that what consenting adults do (whether it's intimate, private sex or having rough sex while being filmed and putting it on the web for people to see) is something that should not be censored."

Nobody talked about censorship. This question goes far beyond consent. If porn actresss can only make money by being choked with penises or gang-banged or doing ass to mouth (everybody ignored that one - too horrible to think about perhaps) is that something we should tolerate just becasue they "consented"? And like I said this consent that you keep banging on about is consent from vulnerable, likely to have been sexually abused, poor, young women. What "consent" is there there and what choice?

"What does it say about male porn users that gagging, gang bangs (mock gang rape scenarios), double penetrations (which definitely do damage women's bodies depsite the callous claims to the contrary) are what they want to watch?"

I think it says they like to watch consenting adults doing extreme stuff. Before you start claiming that the "pro-porn" side don't know what's out there...I'll say it...I watch gang bangs (it's a fantasy of mine...I'd do it in real life but I haven't had the opportunity). I watch double penetrations that consist of one cock in the vagina and one in the arse because that too is a fantasy of mine (in fact I've tried it using dh and a vibrator). I don't watch double vaginal or double anal penetration because it doesn't do much for me - I'm too busy wondering how they get in that position. As for gagging - doesn't really do it for me...I'm happy to watch deep-throating and blow jobs though..and I do those things in real life.

Kittock, just about everybody who has taken strong objection to my arguments (and facts) has used the question after question technique rather than stating their own position or making proper critiques of what I and others have said on this thread. It's a one-sided way of debating and it's actually uncomfortable to be put in the position of constantly harried with questions from questioners who can't be bothered to set out their own position and arguments.

If you've got an argument I'll try to address it, but I'm not answering single questions with nothing to back them up. There are plenty of facts and arguments on this thread to address but you don't seem to want to do that.

Once again you're trying to take freedom of choice away from those women Elizabetth. Do you not think they are capable of making life choices?

Ass-to-mouth...I'll not ignore it. That turns me on too. My dh is quite willing to lick my arse.

That's true there are very damaged and vulnerable women involved in porn. Would you be happy if it was your daughter? Why has legislation been slackened? I'm still not sure how it can be legislated.

"Nobody talked about censorship. This question goes far beyond consent. If porn actresss can only make money by being choked with penises or gang-banged or doing ass to mouth (everybody ignored that one - too horrible to think about perhaps) is that something we should tolerate just becasue they "consented"? And like I said this consent that you keep banging on about is consent from vulnerable, likely to have been sexually abused, poor, young women. What "consent" is there there and what choice?"

She still is making a choice. I think it's getting into very dodgy ground to suggest that someone who has no money or who is vulnerable or been sexually abused cannot make rational decisions. In fact I'd say if you're going to argue that they can't make a rational decision about whether to make porn (be it extreme or otherwise) then I'd argue that she wasn't able to make any rational decisions and should be cared for by the state. That imo is absurd.

It wasn't your DP we had the discussion about whether he'd be willing to take it up the bum was it Norma? Things seem to be coming back to me.......

As for those women's "freedom of choice", I think you've stretched the term "choice" to meaninglessness. Young women with three As at A-level and a Cambridge place don't "choose" porn, it's the most vulnerable women in society who do, and in fact it often chooses them given the number of pimps and predatory men in the porn industry waiting for vulnerable flesh to prey on.

There is one huge argument that you refuse to answer tho

How is gay porn degrading to women and why do only think women are degraded in porn but not the man?

You will only argue that women are the downtrodden ones

Some people enjoy the things you think of extreme, why can't you accept that some women can and do enjoy your idea of extreme sex?

And arse to mouth, i don't do anal without a condom, so not a problem for me, but I'm sure there are women that don't mind it. Everyone has a different idea to what is acceptable, it doesn't mean they are wrong or right (ob, excluding non consential stuff)

rebelmum - Madamez made a good post earlier about legislation. It contained things such as regular health checks paid for by the porn companies, industry standard contracts, a confidential complaints procedure, a regulator paid for by the porn companies, an industry code of practice.

Ass to mouth, gang bangs, throat gagging are not rational decisions they are sexual abuse.

gang bang is definitely NOT abuse, not for everybody, but I can promise you, other than one rape, I have never been abused in my life!

Abuse is only when people don't want to partake and are made to

Just because you find it abhorrent, doesn't make it wrong between consenting adults