to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

Picking up on Xenia's point about marital rape: this was only made illegal in the UK in 1991

So until 16 years ago, a husband was absolutely within his rights to rape his wife.

The British Crime Survey of 2004/5 showed that in 92% of all rapes, the victims knew their attackers, with 66% of these being partners, ex-partners or intimates. A further 26% were dates or other acquaintances. Only 8% were strangers.

See www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r159.pdf

It seems pretty obvious to me that it is our historical attitude to male ownership of women that lies at the root of most sexual violence. This goes way way deeper than pornography, and I don't think banning sexual films/downloads/images would make one iota of difference.

Anyone want to discuss?

It wasn't rape - that's the point or wasn't at that time. You gave your consent on marriage and you knew that was the deal and lie back and think or England (or enjoy it).

Most crime is against people we know. Most danger to children is in the home from parents or friends.

It wasn't rape in law, but you can bet it was rape for the victims.

Kittock: well, quite. I had several friends in the 80s who said that, no matter how much they loved their male partners (whether actual or hypothetical) they would never marry because they had no intention of giving up the legal right to refuse sex.

People often mention 'love' and 'real' relationships as an opposition to pornography: a huge amount of abuse, violence, mental cruelty and even murder is done in the name of romantic love. DOmestic violence can also be triggered by a woman's percieved 'failings' at cooking or cleaning, but no one blames Delia Smith or the house-cleaning hags for that.

You get a lot of men who are pro-censorship and against pornography, as well, but they are also against contraceptive advice, feminism, lesbianism and any kind of autonomy for women. Pretty much all of the anti-all--porn mindset is about controlling sexual choices and policing sexual behaviour: basically if you don;t want to do it yourself you think that anyone who does must be lying or mad or malicious.

OBM - by the way, do I know you?

I don;t think so madamez but it's poss that our paths crossed obliquely about ten years ago when i was making documentaries.

gosh that actually feels.. weird.

Coming to this late but I can not understand why men who watch porn are vilified so much.

My dh used porn and is a fantastic dh, father and man in general. He is kind, understanding and everything else you could wish for.

I fail to get this women hating industry that some of you bang on about it.

What is so wrong about enjoying sex? Enjoying watching others having sex? What is so wrong about a woman enjoying turning men on? Whay do she have to be a victim?

I just don't understand.

I'm more concerned about mainstream media, where women are held up for us to aspire to when they are, anorexic, have boob jobs and been airbrushed. Lots of celebrity women take their clothes off to get attention and pout. I don't think any of it is particularly aspirational or healthy and quite damaging for young girls minds. My step-daughter has just gone through a phase of not eating.

"Elizabetth: your exaggerations are becoming idiotic. very few people are turned on by vomiting, and the key component of the fantasy for most porn consumers is that someone else is as enthusiastic about their particular turn on as they are."

Absolutely astonishing. The porn reviewer who doesn't know what modern pornography contains. I didn't say that porn viewers got "turned on" by vomiting I said they enjoyed seeing it done to a woman. Gagging porn is mainstream - Max Hardcore is one of its main proponents. Young men view it like they view Jackass TV - people getting humiliating and painful things done to them for other's entertainment. Either you really haven't got a clue or you are just ignoring the truth because you know your argument won't stand up.

As for Daddy J's ridicilous claim that Bang Bros does not humiliate women I suggest people visit the site if they can stomach it. One of BangBros most famous inventions was the Bang Bus where the scenario (Daddy J actually mentions it) is that a gang of men ride around in a big van and persuade a young woman to come in off the street, then they get her to do more and more degrading and painful acts abusing her both verbally and physically. Then they throw her out on to the street after they've used her. Performers are used but the scenario is supposed to be like a gang rape. It's what made Bang Bros so well known. The callousness that DaddyJ's post displays is similar to what happens to porn users in that they just don't see the pain inflicted on the women in porn anymore. Because women in porn are treated as objects, their feelings are seen as of no account.

But then maybe it's because I prefer to keep my clothes on these days that I've become a dried up old prune

If you won't take my word for it, listen to what pornography directors say about consumer demand in porn -

"As Jerome Tanner put it during a pornography directors' roundtable discussion featured in Adult Video News, "People just want it harder, harder, and harder, because like Ron said, what are you gonna do next?" Another director, Jules Jordan, was blunt about his task: "[O]ne of the things about today's porn and the extreme market, the gonzo market, so many fans want to see so much more extreme stuff that I'm always trying to figure out ways to do something different. But it seems everybody wants to see a girl doing a d.p. now or a gangbang. For certain girls, that's great, and I like to see that for certain people, but a lot of fans are becoming a lot more demanding about wanting to see the more extreme stuff. It's definitely brought porn somewhere, but I don't know where it's headed from there."

Director Mitchell Spinelli, interviewed while filming the first video ("Give Me Gape") for a series for his new Acid Rain company, seemed clear where it was heading:

"People want more. They want to know how many dicks you can shove up an ass," he says with a shrug. "It's like Fear Factor meets Jackass. Make it more hard, make it more nasty, make it more relentless. The guys make the difference. You need a good guy, who's been around and can give a good scene, fuckin' 'em hard. I did my homework. These guys are intense.""

Elizabetth - you've obviously researched the extreme end of the market very extensively.

What measures would like to see taken?

It's not healthy imho, people can get too drawn into it and unable to formulate real relationships it becomes an addiction. Because it is acceptable now, people are expecting more from it as it's less naughty. Victorian men were excited by a drawing of a breast on a post card. I've seen some gruesome stuff. I'm not sure you can outlaw it really, it's become so mainstream.

Elizabeth that is very clear.

What's d.p?

sorry elizabetth

rebelmum - have a look at this Times article on Victorian pornography:

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/relationships/article1882267.ece

I haven't investigated the extreme end of the market. This stuff is MAINSTREAM. It is what the majority of porn consumers are watching. Bang Bros is the number one paid for porn site in the UK. Men and boys like watching the gang rape scenarios of Bang Bus.

Those quotes come from Adult Video News, the industry magazine for pornography in the US (and thus the world because as with all culturual exports, the US sends theirs to the rest of the world). You can visit the Adult Video News website quite safely because it's a business magazine, not a porn magazine, although it talks about the porn industry. If you look at the AVN charts which show what the top selling and renta pornl DVDs are in the US you will get a very good idea of what kind of porn is popular - "Teen Cum Dumpsters 13" anyone?

Is this why the people who support porn aren't up in arms about it - because they don't have a clue what is actually in most of porn?

As for your question Kittock, once again I provide solid evidence and instead of addressing it, a porn-defender immediately starts with the old question technique. It's a great way of avoiding any issue. I've already said what I'd like to see done about pornography further up thread. Now why don't you address the information I've provided in my posts.

DH often looks at "porn" sites on the web - I don't have a problem with this in the same way as I don't mind when he "eyes up" other women when we are out - looking never hurt anybody IMO (and I can't say much as he knows I do the same ). We have also watched DVDs together from time to time. None of this means we are looking for anything outside of our very solid and happy relationship, and nobody gets hurt along the way so I really can't see an issue here - when DS grows gets older I am sure I would be far happier knowing he was looking at porn than going around doing drugs or getting into trouble.

Do you not have any "issues" with what I've described up there, KerryMum? Gang bangs, double penetrations, throat gagging not really worry you?

Any how I don't have "issues" with porn, I have objections to it.

I wonder what kind issues porn users have that they want to see Bang Bus, or gagging porn, or "Teen Cum Dumpsters 13". I'd have thought that was a much more fertile ground for investigation.

DP is double penetration rebelmum, two penises in a rectum or vagina.

You can only imagine what that does to a woman's body.

i am just adding to this thread so i can come back to it later-i have scanned a few posts.i find this all very interesting as it is something i struggle with in my own mind;the question of whether the porn industry is connected with sexual violence.

my views on this subject have changed over the past year,mainly due to reading things on here and also due to the realisation that alot of my attitude was left over from my catholic upbringing.

i used to say that i would dump my dh if i found out he'd been looking at porn,now i can honestly say i dont know what i'd do,apart from hope that he would be open and honest about such things in the first place.

All the blokes where DH works watches the hardcore stuff that Elizbeth has described - its sick. My DH reckons most men prefer that than the stuff on sky because you can see the penetration whereas on sky you can't .

Maybe the porn supporters don't watch the hardcore sicko stuff Elizabeth so they have no idea how bad it really is (although after this thread they do now).

It is a fact most men prefer the hardcore stuff which I think is very worrying.

I have come to the conclusion most men are pervs.