Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

1002 replies

Elizabetth · 14/11/2007 20:58

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

OP posts:
normabutty · 16/11/2007 13:57

"It wasn't your DP we had the discussion about whether he'd be willing to take it up the bum was it Norma? Things seem to be coming back to me.......

As for those women's "freedom of choice", I think you've stretched the term "choice" to meaninglessness. Young women with three As at A-level and a Cambridge place don't "choose" porn, it's the most vulnerable women in society who do, and in fact it often chooses them given the number of pimps and predatory men in the porn industry waiting for vulnerable flesh to prey on."

Indeed it was my dh we had that discussion about.

I'm also going to dispute your last point. I would be quite happy to star in porn and I'd quite happily make amateur porn and show it on the web. I have 4 1/2 A levels and a Master's degree.

As for it generally being 'vulnerable' women, I will agree with that. However just because they are vulnerable doesn't mean they haven't made that choice. Perhaps with support earlier on in their lives they would have made a different choice but that doesn't mean they didn't choose porn. I'm quite saddened that you feel these women aren't able to make choices.

normabutty · 16/11/2007 13:59

"Ass to mouth, gang bangs, throat gagging are not rational decisions they are sexual abuse."

I guess I sexually abuse my dh then . How on earth can you suggest that about consenting adults?

BritTex · 16/11/2007 14:00

after skimming this thread I am not sure where anyone is going with it. There is no answer to the "porn' question, there will always be a market for it whether you like it or not, if you make it illegal then you make it more appealing to the "extreame".

I hope you all make sure that you close down your browser before your dc's get home form school as there is some rather nasty stuff discussed here. dont want the DC's reading porn on Mumsnet!

Elizabetth · 16/11/2007 14:01

It's not your career though is it norma. Imagine being put in the position of a director telling you "either do ass to mouth (i.e. eat shit), or we're sending you home and getting another performer" which isn't exactly an uncommon scenario. So you're put in this position of doing something awful and damaging to your body or not being able to pay the rent.

I'm sure women in porn are able to make choices, the point I'm making is that their choices are so limited by their circumstances its hardly fair to them to call it a choice. Women with wider ranges of choices don't generally go into porn.

OP posts:
Elizabetth · 16/11/2007 14:03

"if you make it illegal then you make it more appealing to the "extreame"."

Actually the thread shows the opposite. Make it legal and it moves to the extreme. You can't get much more extreme than ass to mouth or gagging, or mock gang rapes.

"I hope you all make sure that you close down your browser before your dc's get home form school as there is some rather nasty stuff discussed here. dont want the DC's reading porn on Mumsnet!"

That's interesting, worried about Mumsnet but not about all the pornhounds who keep pornography in the house for kids to find.

OP posts:
normabutty · 16/11/2007 14:03

That point only suggests that the industry should be regulated. Performers should have full details of the shoot beforehand and if the director tries to force them to do other things on the shoot they should be paid their fee regardless...that's where regulation comes in and that is what I'd say was the best solution.

minorityrules · 16/11/2007 14:09

all porn, out in the open and accepted would mean greater regulations... which all of us 'pro-porn' people agree on. This is where all porn should be, regardless of type

We ALL agree there

But you can't put your feelings on certain subjects and take them as gospel. Different people like different things, it does not make them wrong

Elizabetth · 16/11/2007 14:10

So you're a porn performer sitting there wondering how you are going to pay the rent next month and a director phones up and says they need you for ass to mouth and because there's nothing else on the horizon you take it - and that makes it OK, does it?

You don't seem to be displaying much empathy for women in these situations norma.

I think they should make paying for sex and sexual acts illegal, that would put a stop to all this and you'd be able to carry on with your amateur porno life.

OP posts:
rebelmum1 · 16/11/2007 14:12

well it certainly wouldn't be my choice of a career. I can't imagine them at career fairs. Shall I be a solicitor or a Porn Star?

BritTex · 16/11/2007 14:15

Elizabeth- I cannot do anything about the pervs out there because I have nothing to do with them. I dont spend my time researching exactly what they do do and therefore am not in a position to know anything about it. (BTW you seem to know an AWFUL LOT ABOUT IT)???

The reason I am concerned about MUMSNET is because this whole subject got started when ALM's Dh left a porn DVD in the TV and DC's saw it. everyone jumped all over him for being an irresponsible perv! and some of the descriptions on this thread are quite disturbing. and what's with that title? rather rude i think.

DaddyJ · 16/11/2007 14:16

It's an important point so I hope MNHQ won't mind if I
make it even more explicitely:
This is the link to the Bangbus website.
Where is the gang rape, fake or not?
Where is the gonzo, the woman hating?

I think we have established the fundamental mistake in your op, Elisabeth:
Hate porn (good word?) is NOT mainstream.
The most popular commercial porn website is all vanilla.

And that answers your op:
Mumsnetters are not particularly bothered about pornography
because the kind of stuff you have in mind is not something
that the majority of people - male or female - are exposed to,
or expose themselves to.

DaddyJ · 16/11/2007 14:19

HOWEVER - and this is were I agree with you -
there is a debate to be had about whether the
hate porn might become mainstream and what
we should do about that.

normabutty · 16/11/2007 14:21

Most people wouldn't do their jobs if they didn't need the money. I'm not saying it's a great job or a perfect job...I'm saying the women choose to do it...yes they may choose to do it for money but that's how most people choose their jobs.

Won't be posting on this thread again...I have a busy weekend making my amateur porno. Anyone who wants a copy can let me know .

Elizabetth · 16/11/2007 14:22

Bang bus is mock gang rapes and you can't get away from that. A woman in a van with a group of men who wanted to do appalling sexual acts to her would have no choice but go along with them. Because you're a man you'll never understand that fear. That's what the bang bus scenario is representing. Groups of men don't pick strange women up in the street and have consenting sex with them (unless they are prostitutes and even then a prostituted woman would probably be very unwilling to go off with a group like that) women have been raped by groups of men in vans though. Gang rape isn't quite as uncommon as people think.

As for people going to Bangbus, the site is choc full of misogyny and woman- hatred. I'm surprised you think women won't notice it.

OP posts:
rebelmum1 · 16/11/2007 14:23

Yes I didn't even know what d.p. was and someone else thought it was two in the same bit everyone else is happy gang banging at home or videoing sex with their dh's.

DaddyJ · 16/11/2007 14:45

It's pure vanilla fantasy, Elisabethh.
Have you never discussed this subject with a man?

Have you never been told that being able to just cruise
the streets and pick up attractive girls who are happy and willing
to have sex with you, is very much a wet dream to many men?
Emphasis on 'happy and willing'; there is no reference to
kidnapping or drugging these girls, is there?

I would be really grateful if other MNers could be brave
enough to have a look and tell us whether they can see
a gang rape scenario.

It's the central point of Elisabethh's op and seeing
as I appear to suffer from male limitations your female
views could help us move this thread forward.

DaddyJ · 16/11/2007 14:48

Which appalling sex acts are you referring to btw?

I could not even find a dp on Bangbus,
it mostly appears to be one-on-one.

Elisabethh, have you actually looked at the site?

rebelmum1 · 16/11/2007 14:50

ha ha I would have a look but I'm a work atm

onebatmother · 16/11/2007 14:53

i will have a look later after bedtime and be honest about what i think

kittock · 16/11/2007 14:53

Elizabetth - I have stated my own position and presented a number of arguments previously on this thread - I only asked you one question.

But to have a meaningful debate you need to know what the terms are. You are the OP, and therefore the terms are yours to state and I am still not clear on whether we are talking about all pornography or just a specific type, whether we are discussing its effects on consumers or its effects on participants, or whether we are looking for a solution to a specific problem. That's why I asked you the question.

Anyway, since you ask, here is a summary of my position on this subject:

Pornography has been with us for ever and it's not going to go away as long as people continue to have sex.

Sexual arousal is highly complex and often connected to the most taboo areas of our consciousness. Pornography can only reflect this.

The spectrum of pornography is vast covering very benign activities which even the most prudish of us would accept to those which are utterly repugnant to most of us and those which would be criminal in real life.

In a medium like print, where there are no real life participants to come to physical harm, I don't believe that there is any justification for banning or censorship.

In pornography involving actors, I believe that the participants should have the same rights and recourse to the law that regular actors have, and the market should be regulated to reflect this. I acknowledge that in reality, sections of the pornography industry are exploiting workers in criminal and morally unjustifiable ways. I think this criminal behaviour should be addressed as any other criminal behaviour should be, not by means of a blanket ban on pornographic activity. However, I don't have any practical solutions as to how this might be better policed. Again, that's why I asked you the question.

I think it makes no sense to blame the subjugation of women on pornography. In some of the countries where women are most restricted in their rights and freedom, pornography is also heavily restricted.

And I have no problem with people posting themselves on the internet doing whatever they want.

Elizabetth · 16/11/2007 15:33

Pornography has not been with us for ever. A few erotic drawings in temples and caves do not equal a large proportion of the male population being regularly exposed to real women being used in the most degrading ways possible as has happened in the past twenty to thirty years, with a the explosion and move to the worst kinds of humiliation in the past ten.

"Sexual arousal is highly complex and often connected to the most taboo areas of our consciousness. Pornography can only reflect this."

Pornography reflects a male version of sexuality where women are treated as f*ck objects for men. As John Stoltenberg says, "pornography tells lies about women, but the truth about men".

"The spectrum of pornography is vast covering very benign activities which even the most prudish of us would accept to those which are utterly repugnant to most of us and those which would be criminal in real life. "

It's got nothing to do with prudery and everything to do with compassion. Porn performers are used and exposed for men's enjoyment. Exhibitionism isn't a facet of female sexuality, if it were, every next woman would be sitting in her front room masturbating for the passing public and that doesn't happen. Instead vulnerable women are preyed on by pimps and porn producers with paltry amounts of money in order to persuade them to allow their bodies to be commodified for men's viewing pleasure. And gee look what form that pleasure takes, ass to mouth, gang bangs, double anal, bang bus, gonzo porn, Animal farm (bestiality) - it's a horrible list and it's what people hear refuse to address - that men want to see this stuff being done to women.

"In pornography involving actors, I believe that the participants should have the same rights and recourse to the law that regular actors have, and the market should be regulated to reflect this. I acknowledge that in reality, sections of the pornography industry are exploiting workers in criminal and morally unjustifiable ways. I think this criminal behaviour should be addressed as any other criminal behaviour should be, not by means of a blanket ban on pornographic activity. However, I don't have any practical solutions as to how this might be better policed. Again, that's why I asked you the question."

Linda Lovelace was raped on film and was never able to get recourse. Lara Roxx got Aids when she was coerced into double anal, she hasn't had compensation. Tracey Lords was fifteen when she was used in porn - none of the pornographers who featured an underage girl were ever punished. Sexual crimes against women are not addressed by our society - the vast majority of rapists, sexual abusers etc. get away with it. Why on earth do you think pornographers woud be any different - especially as "she consented" seems to stop all thought, judgement and compassion?

"I think it makes no sense to blame the subjugation of women on pornography. In some of the countries where women are most restricted in their rights and freedom, pornography is also heavily restricted."

They are two sides of the same coin. In each case women's bodies are being used and controlled by men. Also I do believe if you investigate you'll find that Iran for example has a huge porn audience. Prostitution and the male exploitation of women's bodies thrive in male-dominated societies. It's why in Victorian times (which were supposed to be so prudish about sex) one in three women in the East End of London were prostituted in order that those Victorian patriarchs who owned their wives and daughters could also go and find some poor woman to abuse.

OP posts:
Elizabetth · 16/11/2007 15:36

"Have you never been told that being able to just cruise
the streets and pick up attractive girls who are happy and willing
to have sex with you, is very much a wet dream to many men?
Emphasis on 'happy and willing'; there is no reference to
kidnapping or drugging these girls, is there?"

Using trickery to get the woman into the van, which is the scenario in these films, is kidnapping. The women are verbally abused and humiliated and you're arguing that that is men's "wet dream". I say there are a lot of fucked up men around.

The fantasy reads like men want women to be sexbots who will just do what ever a man wants. Well that's the scenario a man gets in rape, because a woman is so frightened she'll submit.

OP posts:
ClaphamLauren · 16/11/2007 15:48

"So you're a porn performer sitting there wondering how you are going to pay the rent next month and a director phones up and says they need you for ass to mouth and because there's nothing else on the horizon you take it - and that makes it OK, does it?"

Maybe, just maybe, if the industry is as hideous as you say it is the person wouldn't accept the job regardless of money? If rape, drugs, AIDS etc are as common as you make them seem there is not enough money in the world that would make me go and do that job. Rent or no rent. If it meant going and staying in a hostel and claiming benefits then I'm sure that would be a preferable option for all these 'poor vulnerable' women you are talking about.

Or they could get a job working for one of the Sky TV channels where you prance around in your knickers pretending to have phone sex. EVERYONE has options and if people want to leave a job or industry badly enough they will. If they would rather sacrifice everything else for the money or the lifestyle that money brings then they will. It's all about personal choice!

Elizabetth · 16/11/2007 15:53

It's all about men wanting to see ass to mouth, gagging porn, gang rape, bukkake etc etc etc.

Men's choices never even get a mention.

OP posts:
minorityrules · 16/11/2007 15:54

Don;t know about the others but Traci Lords.....

she used a friend's birth certificate to obtain a driver's license indicating that she was twenty-two years of age, and faked her way into the porn industry at the age of fifteen. She started in the porn industry with Jim South at the World Modeling Agency in Sherman Oaks, while assuming the name Kristie Elizabeth Nussman.[3]In May 1986, authorities discovered she was underage while making movies and they arrested her, as well as the owners of her movie agency and X-citement Video, Inc. (See United States v. X-Citement Video.) The ensuing prosecution against the agencies cost the pornographic film and distribution industry millions of dollars as they were obliged by law to remove hundreds of thousands of her videotapes, films and magazines from store shelves to avoid the risk of prosecution for trafficking child pornography. In her book, Lords suggested hypocrisy on the part of the movie producers and the news media, arguing that the porn industry actually got richer from the publicity of the scandal, even as they complained of losing a lot of money after destroying her illegal movies. Lords felt she was also exploited by the reporters, who used censored stills from her unlawful films. Lords herself was never charged with a crime, since as a minor she was unable to give informed consent to perform sex acts on film for money. Instead, the agents and producers who accepted her fake IDs were charged and people affiliated with the films in question experienced legal troubles for years. Eventually, the Justice Department was forced to drop all charges when it was revealed that the fake ID which Lords had used to dupe the pornographic film industry was a U.S. passport in the name of Traci Lords

She duped them, they didn't know her age and people did get into trouble

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.