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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To say women can have it all?

205 replies

BlossomOnTrees · 05/05/2021 15:37

  1. A strong and loving marriage or relationship
  2. Gorgeous kids
  3. Financially stable with lots of extra left over
  4. Close family and friends
  5. Fantastic and high paying job.
OP posts:
rarzy · 05/05/2021 19:32

I do feel short on time though even on days not working!

RJnomore1 · 05/05/2021 19:37

Look I don’t want to argue with you about your life choices and I totally respect them but you are justifying them by saying why you made them - there are still other options. The only one that I would comment on is women always say the partner couldn’t care for the child as well as they could. Which irritates the life out of me for many reasons.

On a point I’m sure we can agree on, doesnt everyone think their own children are gorgeous?

Delatron · 05/05/2021 19:38

It’s what you place value on surely?

I gave up a well paying career because I couldn’t stand being in the office until late and seeing my kids for about 20 mins each day (and missing all the plays etc). Have a PT job now but for me having more time in general (and I am more healthier) is far more important.

I find with two parents with full time, fantastic, well paying careers something has to give; getting lots of help in, not seeing kids as much, nannies, gardeners, dog walkers etc. But for some women that would be seen as having it all. It’s not for me.

Seriously79 · 05/05/2021 19:38

@BlossomOnTrees

1. A strong and loving marriage or relationship
  1. Gorgeous kids
  2. Financially stable with lots of extra left over
  3. Close family and friends
  4. Fantastic and high paying job.
I will probably be flamed for this, but no, I don't believe it's possible to have it all. Surely, something, somewhere along the line has to slip?

I'm not too proud to admit, that I don't have everything, and to be honest, I wouldn't want to. If you have it all, isn't there a pressure to 'keep' it all?

And what do you strive for? If you have it all and all areas of your life are perfect and rosy, where do you go from there?

This isn't meant to be argumentative, only my thoughts.

BigFatLiar · 05/05/2021 19:43

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

If you're born a male, to 'have it all' is simply your expected lifestyle. It's never assumed that all the domestic and caring labour, including remembering everyone's birthdays and 'reminding' you to phone your mum, will fall at your feet, or that you'll give up your own career to facilitate that, or that even if you still work full-time after having children you'll still take on the bulk of it. Nowhere is it ever suggested that you're somehow being greedy or want things all your own way if you do carry these expectations.

The phrase 'have it all' epitomises male privilege. I despise it.

You think single fathers don't have the same struggles as everyone else? That the binman or the lad behind the counter in MacDonalds are in fantastic high power jobs?

The whole 'have it all' idea isn't male privilege its just unrealistic nonsense.
For me the people who 'have it all' are the ones who are happy with their lives and look forward to the future. Rich or poor, lots of children or childless, manage of a blue chip company or unemployed, does it matter if you're happy with your life?

partyatthepalace · 05/05/2021 19:44

Some, not all. Obviously.

What’s the point of this?

Iwantanap · 05/05/2021 19:48

Doesn't mean you are happy or aren't under pressure. I think you can have it all with hard working and good planning

MiaMarshmallows · 05/05/2021 19:50

Most women I know of have all that. Not unusual.
If you don't have kids, aren't married etc then a lot would say you are failing or feel sorry for you. People will deny that but it's certainly the experience of some of my female relatives and female friends who only have 1 or 2 things on that list or none at all. They all say they feel embarrassed and intimidated by their peers who 'have it all'. It's tough being a woman. Men don't have the same pressures. With that said , a lot does depend on luck. If you have a high earning partner and marry them then a lot falls into place. Not sure that should be termed as a success story though. The sad fact is, a single woman in her thirties with no kids and a low paying job will not be seen in the same light as a woman of the same age who is married, has kids, financially well off etc.

Honeybee2021 · 05/05/2021 19:51

Quite a few female consultants have this actually

Honeybee2021 · 05/05/2021 19:52

Medical- NHS
I should add GPs too who love their jobs

lifeturnsonadime · 05/05/2021 19:55

@RJnomore1

Look I don’t want to argue with you about your life choices and I totally respect them but you are justifying them by saying why you made them - there are still other options. The only one that I would comment on is women always say the partner couldn’t care for the child as well as they could. Which irritates the life out of me for many reasons.

On a point I’m sure we can agree on, doesnt everyone think their own children are gorgeous?

Regarding partners ability to care , for non disabled children I'd agree.

Would you expect your partner who was paid more than you due to patriarchal reasons to give up their earnings to look after children? Regardless of ability to care that makes literally no financial sense.

I tried to continue working but was heading for a breakdown, what good would that do anyone?

For children with complex disabilities, not so much.

I tried to continue working but was heading for a breakdown, what good would that do anyone?

You come across as quite judgemental. Do you think that every mother who does caring roles REALLY has a choice? If there were better services then we may have more choice but they don't exist.

My children are gorgeous despite their disabilities which have, along with many thousands of women in this country, limited my life choices.

It is naieve to say that this is to do with dreams and choices.

ViciousJackdaw · 05/05/2021 20:31

1. A strong and loving marriage or relationship
Not everyone wants that. Some people actively choose to remain single.
2. Gorgeous kids
Again, not everyone wants DC. As for 'gorgeous', have you any idea how insensitive that is? Surely all children are worthy, regardless of what they look like?
3. Financially stable with lots of extra left over
You can be perfectly happy with nil points. Many choose quality of life over money.
4. Close family and friends
What happens when your family members die? Do you go from 'having it all' to having 'less'?
5. Fantastic and high paying job
See 3

Italiandreams · 05/05/2021 20:41

I think pre having children I would possibly have aspired to this. Now I do work full time in an ok paying job ( good really but not by mumsnet standards) and am main bread winner. Now I have my children I would love not to have that job because I have to work so many hours to maintain it I really miss my children and would love to be with them more. For me , I would be happier as either a stay at home mum or at least only work part time hours.

Flemingshat · 05/05/2021 20:54

I really don't think it is. I know it isn't the acceptable feminist viewpoint but that's what I think.

Part of the reason why modern feminism is in the divisive, toxic mess that it is (IMO) is a frankly pigheaded refusal to acknowledge that there ARE differences between men and women. That isn't remotely me saying that women are innately better at childcare, ironing and cleaning while men are better at being authoritative in the boardroom and chopping down trees (or whatever), before anyone jumps on me. But I know no women, including myself, who would genuinely be happy to be the sole breadwinner while their male partners are SAHPs. Generally speaking, women have a biological imperative to be with their young children. All the research shows overwhelmingly that outcomes for children are better when there is a primary caregiver at home with them (obviously that doesn't have to be the mother, it could also be the father). But our society really doesn't allow for that at all - it's very difficult for most families families survive on a single income. That's a major part of why our school system starts as absurdly early as it does.

This is not me shaming women who go back to work (I went back to work myself when my son was young as I didn't feel able to cope with staying at home - I realise now this was due to untreated PND). But our society does not put children first. If it did, it would put far more into supporting parents and being a SAHP would be seen as a positive choice rather than being derided for being behind the times.

I personally do not see how it would be possible for me to have a high flying, high paid career and simultaneously be the kind of mother to my son that I would want to be. And I would categorically not want my husband to be the SAHP while I went out to work.

Sorry if that makes me a terrible feminist.

ChameleonKola · 05/05/2021 21:05

@Flemingshat

I really don't think it is. I know it isn't the acceptable feminist viewpoint but that's what I think.

Part of the reason why modern feminism is in the divisive, toxic mess that it is (IMO) is a frankly pigheaded refusal to acknowledge that there ARE differences between men and women. That isn't remotely me saying that women are innately better at childcare, ironing and cleaning while men are better at being authoritative in the boardroom and chopping down trees (or whatever), before anyone jumps on me. But I know no women, including myself, who would genuinely be happy to be the sole breadwinner while their male partners are SAHPs. Generally speaking, women have a biological imperative to be with their young children. All the research shows overwhelmingly that outcomes for children are better when there is a primary caregiver at home with them (obviously that doesn't have to be the mother, it could also be the father). But our society really doesn't allow for that at all - it's very difficult for most families families survive on a single income. That's a major part of why our school system starts as absurdly early as it does.

This is not me shaming women who go back to work (I went back to work myself when my son was young as I didn't feel able to cope with staying at home - I realise now this was due to untreated PND). But our society does not put children first. If it did, it would put far more into supporting parents and being a SAHP would be seen as a positive choice rather than being derided for being behind the times.

I personally do not see how it would be possible for me to have a high flying, high paid career and simultaneously be the kind of mother to my son that I would want to be. And I would categorically not want my husband to be the SAHP while I went out to work.

Sorry if that makes me a terrible feminist.

Having your own wishes for how you want to set up your life in terms of childcare and earning isn’t anti feminism, not sure where you’ve got that from! Feminism is about choice, and the ability for women and men to make choices equally. If you choose to stay home with your children that has absolutely no bearing on being a feminist.

Interesting that you don’t know a single couple where the man is SAHP and the woman is happy with that, I know quite a few. There are women out there who are very happy returning to work once they’ve healed from the birth and thrilled to have their partner stay home full time.

You personally don’t see how it’s possible to be the kind of mother you want to be while having a high flying career. So the ‘having it all’ items listed in the OP don’t really apply to you, you don’t want them all to feel you have it all. And that’s okay. Everyone wants different things and you shouldn’t feel pressured to have a hot career just because society tells you to do that.

Bourbonic · 05/05/2021 21:21

I don't think ANYBODY can have it all. Yes you can have an amazing partner and lovely kids whilst also having a high flying career and loads of money, but how much do you actually get to enjoy the partner and kids without work intruding?

BlanketyBlanky · 05/05/2021 21:30

I would want to add plenty of down-time to that list to be happy (TV, phone scrolling, cooking and listening to radio)

Plus at least a couple of hours a day of doing nice stuff with the kids like chatting, reading or watching them play.

And health and happiness for the family.

More time for phoning the family and friends and staying in touch more would be ideal too.

(Not in that order!)

Flemingshat · 05/05/2021 21:42

Feminism is about choice, and the ability for women and men to make choices equally.

No it isn't, and THIS is my biggest bugbear about modern feminism. Feminism is not about choice, it is about the liberation of women from male oppression.

RUOKHon · 05/05/2021 21:42

Only if they do it all as well.

Flemingshat · 05/05/2021 21:45

You personally don’t see how it’s possible to be the kind of mother you want to be while having a high flying career. So the ‘having it all’ items listed in the OP don’t really apply to you, you don’t want them all to feel you have it all. And that’s okay. Everyone wants different things and you shouldn’t feel pressured to have a hot career just because society tells you to do that

I don't see how it is possible for ANY parent to be the kind of parent research has clearly shown it is best for children to have, and simultaneously work in a high flying, 9-6 (often longer) job.

This is my point about society not putting children first. A lot of posts here about the parent's choice to do what it is they want, and not what is actually best for the child.

Obviously I know it is WAY more nuanced than that, and there are a hundred reasons why being SAHP is totally out of reach for many families, but I still think it is telling that most of these comments are about what is right for the parent and not what might be right for the child.

3WildOnes · 05/05/2021 21:45

I don’t think I personally ‘can have it all’. I can’t spend as much time at home with my children as I would like and have a successful career. So I sacrificed my career because spending more to at home was more important to me. That’s life, choices and sacrifices have to be made.

Flemingshat · 05/05/2021 21:46

Sorry for the millions of typos in that post!!!

RUOKHon · 05/05/2021 21:47

“Feminism is about choice, and the ability for women and men to make choices equally”

No it isn't, and THIS is my biggest bugbear about modern feminism. Feminism is not about choice, it is about the liberation of women from male oppression

Yes exactly. ‘Choice’ is what liberal feminism is all about. As long as you choose the choice that men approve of (WOHM and do the majority of housework and emotional labour in the relationship, make sure you stay slim and attractive, be totally cool with sex work, think that pop stars singing songs in their pants is ‘empowering’, etc) then you’re having it all hun!!

CommanderBurnham · 05/05/2021 21:52

I have all of these but they don't always contribute to my happiness, and I have been equally happy when I had none of those.

Being loved, and having healthy and happy friends and family brings me most happiness, after my basic needs are covered.

It is absolutely possible for men and women to have these things, but they shouldn't feel that they should, or that they'll be miraculously happy if they do.

Flemingshat · 05/05/2021 21:52

Personally I think liberal feminism has done women an immense disservice in teaching teaching them that all is positive and warm and fuzzy, girl power, "you do you".

It doesn't work on SO many levels.