To think you can't judge someone by one mistake

[ButtonMoony]

YABU - people never change
YANBU - without all the details you shouldn't judge.

Prompted by another thread about a bloke who did prison time for punching someone. Lots of comments deciding he is a violent man and likely to be again in the future without knowing ANY fact.

Also prompted by my own experience.

Never any trouble with the police for 40 plus years. Successful business woman, PTA blah blah.

Husband left, business crashed, I had a full on mental breakdown. Crisis teams, inpatient treatment, sectioned, the works.

During a period of my life that I honestly can't remember and whilst in the depths of a depression I wouldn't wish on anyone I was convicted for drink driving.

So. Should I be judged by people for the rest of my life and deemed a threat to people as I might do it again (I won't. Sober. Re married. Back in employment) or should people consider overall circumstances before making a snap decision about someone based on one mistake.

Drunk driving is a terrible thing to do and it is rightly socially unacceptable and harshly punished if caught.

However, it doesn't mean you can never be a contributing member of society again, and I do wonder what some MNers think people with convictions should do. As I said on another thread, on the one hand they say people with convictions should never be trusted again and on the other hand would condemn benefits claimants, so what do you actually want?

I want dangerous people taken off the streets and everyone else rehabiliated and paying their taxes.

@ravenmum

So OP, if you knew a man who'd punched someone while drunk, would you leave your small children with him?

Actually a close friend has a very short temper when he has been drinking and has quite a lengthy police history. I would never go to a pub with him as it would almost certainly result in someone getting punched.

As a result he now avoids alcohol himself.

I would have and have had no hesitation in leaving my kids with him if needed. He is a respectable man with a respectable job, who when he was younger drank too much and got into fights so now with the benefit of another 20 years over his head avoids drinking.

If I decide one thing you did is something that makes me not want to associate with you, I can do that, whether you or anyone else thinks thats fair or not in private life yes, but not when it comes to employment

I think deemed a threat is very different to being judged

This. I assume you're referring to a thread from yesterday -- the one about the ex-prison officer in a relationship with a man who'd done a long sentence for a causing someone's death in a drunken punch-up?

I said that I wouldn't be contemplating a relationship with a man who got into a drunken fight in the first place, so the fact that he was then jailed for killing someone in one is irrelevant to me. For me, getting into a fight when drunk is not a normal or remotely acceptable thing to do, even if there are not more serious consequences.

So OP, if you knew a man who'd punched someone while drunk, would you leave your small children with him

Years ago I knew a bloke who'd had a flight with his (ex) wife years before. They were both convicted of assault (or may have received cautions, but either way it came up on the (then) CRB check when he later became a football coach. He wasn't a danger to the kids in any way.

I think as some others have said, it really does come down to what it is you did.

My ex boyfriend sexually assaulted me 6 years ago and has been a model citizen and partner ever since from what I've seen and been told. I still judge him because to me he will always be a sex offender, even if he never ever does it again.

So I think it's quite a hard question. You mentioned the man who punched someone when drunk - truthfully I am wary of anyone who gets violent when they are drunk.

I think it is way too basic to say should someone be judged on one mistake when it depends how serious it was and how much it affected anyone else.

If we all wrote down in the sand things we had done wrong....

I hope I am forgiven, the hardest thing of all is to forgive yourself.

OP you are not making you decision making abilities sound better with that latest post. A one off poor decision to drink whilst not yet under the limit is one thing but now you’re portraying a pattern of poor decision making, And one that involves your children’s safety!! It would be a concern for me and something I’d keep in mind when dealing with you.

The reason I'm uncomfortable with what you're saying about how the police spoke to you and you're minimising of it as a result, is because of something that happened to me. I received a threatening text message from an unknown number when I was alone in my house late at night. I reported it to the police, who took it very seriously under the Malicious Communications Act. The number was traced and the sender given a warning and told to desist or prosecution would follow. A few months later, the sender was on social media boasting about how the police had been "really nice to them" and "hadn't considered it that serious". As a party to that, I can assure you that wasn't the case. They were very fortunate indeed that I didn't make a further complaint and that they weren't prosecuted.

The police absolutely were placating you, its just a technique they learn as part of your job and the fact that you're using it as an excuse to minimise what you did rather than accepting full responsibility is quite awful to read. What you say doesn't add up either, because earlier on you say that you had "forgotten" the circumstances around the incident, yet you quite clearly do remember detailed events, which simply makes you sound unreliable. I can't understand why you don't realise this.

I think part of the issue is how well you know the person, isn't it? These examples support that theory, at least. I don't know my neighbour's bf that well, either, so I don't have any "evidence" that he isn't going to beat her up. I'd say it's normal and frankly a good idea to be cautious around someone if you know they've hurt someone, unless you have really good reason to think they won't do it again.

I would never go to a pub with him as it would almost certainly result in someone getting punched
Exactly.

Past behaviour is the best predictor we have of someone's future behaviour.
You can't have all the facts, obviously, but once someone has done something you know that the behaviour is within the realms of possibility for that person.

Some people, maybe even most, would never be able to murder someone, regardless of the circumstances. You know for a fact that someone who has murdered is not part of that group.

@UhtredRagnarson

OP you are not making you decision making abilities sound better with that latest post. A one off poor decision to drink whilst not yet under the limit is one thing but now you’re portraying a pattern of poor decision making, And one that involves your children’s safety!! It would be a concern for me and something I’d keep in mind when dealing with you.

That is absolute nonsense and you are perfectly making the point about people being judgmental.

I know the bloke and you don't. He is zero risk to my kids (or his, or any of the others who regularly visit his and his wife's house.)

He was a dick 20 odd years ago. He knows that if he goes drinking he is likely to be a dick again, so he doesn't.

That doesn't in anyway make him a risk to my children if they go there to play football in his garden for a few hours.

The idea that someone would stop their kids visiting someone if it came to light that he had been in a fight when drunk 20 years easier is bizarre and perfectly makes the point I was trying to make

I would never go to a pub with him as it would almost certainly result in someone getting punched....As a result he now avoids alcohol himself.

Which is it?

@DrSbaitso

I would never go to a pub with him as it would almost certainly result in someone getting punched....As a result he now avoids alcohol himself.

Which is it?

Erm. Both.

He doesn't drink or go to pubs. If he decided he was and asked me to join him I wouldn't go because I know what the outcome would be

"Erm. Both.

He doesn't drink or go to pubs. If he decided he was and asked me to join him I wouldn't go because I know what the outcome would be"

So there's a chance he would or could despite his "respectable job"

Just like you could. Therefore, risk assessments should be made.

If he decided he was and asked me to join him I wouldn't go because I know what the outcome would be
So you too would judge what his future behaviour would be like in the pub, based on your knowledge of his past behaviour.

In what circumstances do you think people shouldn't do that?

Erm. Both.

He doesn't drink or go to pubs. If he decided he was and asked me to join him I wouldn't go because I know what the outcome would be

An adult who can't trust himself not to be violent 20 years later clearly hasn't learned his lesson.

OP you're so contradictory, I would judge you on that alone. Even reading your posts on here gives me such cognitive dissonance, it makes me feel really uncomfortable and to be truthful, I'd probably stay as far away from you as possible. Someone who had one conviction years ago for drink driving which they really regretted and were horribly embarrassed about - I'd probably never think about it. Someone who is inconsistent and confusing to be around - avoid them.

@denverRegina

"Erm. Both.

He doesn't drink or go to pubs. If he decided he was and asked me to join him I wouldn't go because I know what the outcome would be"

So there's a chance he would or could despite his "respectable job"

Just like you could. Therefore, risk assessments should be made.

Wow.

Anyway I am out. Turns out lots are way more judgemental than I realised and I have an appointment.

An all day appointment which starts with lunch with friends and then all afternoon visiting different pubs and a chines tonight then more pubs, and the kids are going to a friends for the night.

Judge away.

poppycat: I want dangerous people taken off the streets and everyone else rehabiliated and paying their taxes.
........
That sounds fair to me.

Enjoy yourself this evening, ButtonMooney.

I knew plenty of people who drank too much when they were young, students etc. Even sixth formers! They often acted daft and irresponsibly. They grew out of it.

@denverRegina your original comment didn't mention risk assessment at all you have only said that after
And you can't risk assess the op without all details which is what you did

The idea that someone would stop their kids visiting someone if it came to light that he had been in a fight when drunk 20 years easier is bizarre and perfectly makes the point I was trying to make

This is just another example of back pedalling from you I’m afraid OP. Originally you said

Actually a close friend has a very short temper when he has been drinking and has quite a lengthy police history. I would never go to a pub with him as it would almost certainly result in someone getting punched.

Quite a lengthy police history has now become “in a fight 20 years earlier”.

Still drinking then OP? Learned nothing from your actions quite clearly.

@Francescaisstressed

Depends on the mistake. Had a friend that took a fradueltn credit card out in another freinds name (who was vulnerable). She maintains it was a one time mistake and would never do anything like it again. Half our group forgave her. I was one that didn't because I knew I would never trust her again.

Hearing your story I wouldn't judge you on what happened. However, it really does depend on the seriousness and consequence of what you have done and trust etc.

I think in some ways this is worse than a one-off losing of temper (which may have been provoked), because it is very deliberate, and involved planning and the targeting of a vulnerable person who would be easier to con.

I would never trust her again either.

@worriedatthemoment my first comment said that I had no interest in judging anyone but that I do have an interest in managing risk!

And you never have the whole facts or information, to be able to do that would be a super power.

You make risk assessments based on the information available to you at the time. There is no other way of doing it. Unless you've got a better suggestion and I'll pass it on