When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

YABU. They are doing it for themselves - for their self-image. Nowt wrong with that.

Why does it bother you so much?

Yanbu. I don't wear make up, and while I see nothing wrong with make up, I find it super strange that women are expected to but men are expected not to. It's a blind spot for feminists imo. When I was getting ready for my wedding, all my friends including some women who are feminists were amazed I didn't put any make up on "not even a bit of lip gloss?" but no one murmured at my DH for not wearing any. Ffs patriarchy lol

You're not wrong. Of course they're doing it for the reaction it gets from other people. If there was no audience there'd be no point.

If they were on a desert island there wouldn't be surgeons so they wouldn't get it done.

I sometimes get all made up and dressed up to sit in my house by myself because it cheers me up, sometimes I'll go on a night out in something super casual with no makeup on at all 🤷‍♀️

Not really sure why you think women aren't doing stuff for their own sake.

Why does it bother you?

I agree with you. The fact that women do this so much more than men shows there must be a social influence. Unless you think women are 'naturally' more interested in their appearance, which would be rather misogynistic in my view.
Of course in a way they are 'doing it for themselves', because they feel more confident when they look better. I certainly do. But I know it's because of the way I assume others see me.

Bit of both really. If I lived alone on a desert island I would still want to look like a goddess. That said I don't want heels, uncomfortable underwear and lipstick ever.

I like painting my nails. I've done my manicures all through lockdown, because it pleases me.

But, oh no, I must be a doltish, unwitting victim of the patriarchy!

Nobody noticed my plastic surgery

Which was the whole point of it as nobody else realised that i had a problem with it

Well you're partly right. But I did the things I did so that I wouldn't feel self conscious when talking to people or looking at my reflection. Nobody else cared about it but I found myself thinking about it all the time. Fixed the problem, feel much happier.

True, I wouldn't care if I was on a desert island alone, but in that situation I also wouldn't care if I was a good human being to other people because there would be none.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Nobody noticed my plastic surgery

Which was the whole point of it as nobody else realised that i had a problem with it

Exactly!

I'd love to have my jowls done. The only thing stopping me is expense.

I think they mean the idea originated from within rather than to please someone else, e.g., a partner who has spent 5 years telling them their breasts aren't big enough.

You don't need self confidence if your on a desert island with absolutely no one around and nothing to do.

You just need the will to live.

I think your argument is invalid.

@Umbivalent

I like painting my nails. I've done my manicures all through lockdown, because it pleases me.

But, oh no, I must be a doltish, unwitting victim of the patriarchy!

No one called you doltish. Painting nails is a kind of artistic thing to do like a tattoo, rather than concealing "blemishes" so in my view is slightly different from what we usually call make up.

But I stick by my point that it is very strange that women are expected to wear it and men are expected not to wear it.

But Rufusthesniggeringreindeer, you wouldn't do it if nobody ever saw whatever you had done, like it was an organ inside your body or as I say, if there were no other people.

You're not wrong. Of course they're doing it for the reaction it gets from other people. If there was no audience there'd be no point.

^Iagree with this YANBU

But the idea doesn't originate from within. It comes initially from social aesthetic ideals, which are then internalised.

I get what you're saying, but they are still doing it for themselves (their own self esteem/self image). I wear makeup most days, even when I'm not leaving the house, because it makes me feel better .

Actually I see it the other way round. Look at older men - they all look dreadful. Boring, plain, grey or bald, gone to seed, sunken eyes. I think women are luckier, because we can have fun with makeup and jewellery and clothes in a way that straight men are not allowed to.

If they were on a desert island there wouldn't be surgeons so they wouldn't get it done.

Nor would there be a mirror for them to see their nose or boobs. I sometimes get dressed up and put on make-up to dine, drink and dance in the house. On my own.

I never gave a shit about what I looked like until lockdown and I was faced with hours and hours of looking at my face every day at zoom meetings. I got the fat dissolved from my chin 2 weeks ago. Didn't care what others thought it was because I had to look at myself. Also I can't wait to get a pedicure, not for others, but again, I do yoga every morning and have to look at my feet and when they are filed and painted they bring me joy.

@Tiggerishigh

But Rufusthesniggeringreindeer, you wouldn't do it if nobody ever saw whatever you had done, like it was an organ inside your body or as I say, if there were no other people.

Well where do you draw the line - should none of us take an interest in fashion, either? Or wear jewellery? Just because we wouldn't on a mythical desert island?

No-one would hear me singing on a desert island. But I still would.

I think some people are just confirming what I said though. Do you not see why those things make you happy? Because society told you it's better like that.

I disagree. I hate how uncomfortable my teeth and boobs make me. I hate how having grey hair makes me feel.

If I were never going to see another soul in my life I'd still want fixed teeth, better boobs and red hair.

OH MY GOD THE SCALES HAVE FALLED FROM MY EYES!!!

@Umbivalent

OH MY GOD THE SCALES HAVE FALLED FROM MY EYES!!!

Whew why are you so angry...?