When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

I agree about losing weight for health, that's different.

When women say they are wearing lipstick/getting Botox/having a spray tan for themselves, that’s what they mean. Those things make them feel better/happier/more confident. Why is that hard to believe?

Im starting to think it's me. I don't think you will see my point. Nevermind

When I'm putting make up on (especially for a lockdown day at home), I'm doing it because I enjoy it. I acknowledge that if nobody else in the world wore makeup, I wouldn't either, but that doesn't stop me enjoying it.

But this applies to everything we do. When I'm listening to British/American pop music, I'm doing it because I enjoy it. When I eat chips from the local chippy, I'm doing it because I enjoy it. If I was born in another culture, I'd almost certainly have different favourites, but that doesn't make my enjoyment of them any less real.

Your point seems to be
What I do, I do for myself. When other women do different stuff, they are doing it for others.

People often wear nice clothes just because they like nice things.
Also some self care is necessity. My skin reacts on change of temperature or windy weather (becomes red and dry) lip are the same so I usually wear foundation and lipstick. My eyes become watery easily so I don’t wear mascara. I also like to be clean. I hate any hint of smell so I keep myself and my clothes clean. I use the same approach to surfaces in kitchen and bathroom - I don’t like smell so I clean them regularly. I never thought that I was doing this for men, dry cracked lips could be very painful.

If everyone is doing it just for themselves why do the things people choose to do change in cycles, im sure women who wore corsets felt they were doing it for themselves to feel "right". It's the fact that what people choose to do changes over time and cultures that's the give away that it's an internalised expression of an external pressure.
Why do we think women look better with nice neat perms for a whole generation and then think long natural hair looks nicer unless we are influenced from outside ourselves?

I tend to agree OP. Saying this as someone who has had something so minor done, nobody knew, but it greatly improved my confidence and stopped me focusing on my face, rather than what I was saying.
I think the issue is why, generally, it is women who feel self-conscious enough to alter their appearance, and not men. And that's a whole load of evolutionary and social conditioning that I'm not sure I will ever figure out! Feels very chicken and egg to me.
However, males historically have been prized for their clothes and appearance, as markers of status, and I'm not sure this is less or more so now. Just that we have learnt to monetise and normalise procedures and possessions in a way that wasn't possible only 20 years ago.
Another perspective is why is it that females can be more overt with this in a way that men 'can't' nowadays... I'm not sure. Industrialisation, 2 world wars and expectations of masculinity alongside the emergence of cinema (and a 'marketable' male lead) may have had a hand in it. Is it that the working class has become more prominent in social awareness, and there was no focus on them, from outside, and not on their appearance inwardly. With new prominence, maybe this perpetuated a new male 'ideal' that it benefitted the moneymakers to promote and idealise????

I'd love to have my jowls done. The only thing stopping me is expense

@Umbivalent God, me too. I hate my profile from the side and im sure it woukd take 10 years off me if I didn't have that goddamn jowly bit!

This thread seems just another way to criticise, patronize and put women down.
Its should be possible to discuss societal pressures on women, without being accusatory towards women, and wihout presenting as superior and more enlightened than those who make different choices.
Feminism isn't a competition.

And if you lived in a different society or were part of different cultures, you might choose different ways of spending your time. Drinking wine, for example, is quite culturally tied.

I agree society has a major impact on our choices, but society isn't a monolith, but a network of systems and being contrary to one part of can be just as much a reaction to them as following along. There are also subcultures, overlapping cultural concepts, and people's actions are more complicated than 'society says so'. Society is more complicated than that.

I wore a headcovering for a decade even though no one in my life liked it. My spouse gently tolerated it as an eccentricity I picked up years into our marriage. The only person I knew who wore one was my grandmother who was dead over 5 years before I started, and even she had stopped in her latter years. My choice of clothes is a complicated response to many things, as was my choice to stop covering. I have spent far too much of my recent lockdown months looking at Edwardian skirts & petticoats and beautiful cloche hats. I can't point at anything and say that's why I did those things or why I have grown strong opinions on pretty hats and I think it would be a major oversimplification if someone else tried to say it was 'society'.

I have lined 'scars' from repair work across the front of my front teeth. I could get further repair work done to hide it, but I don't - I have been considering airpolishing my back molars since after a dental surgery earlier this year, brown spots suddenly showed up. Not sure if it's because I struggled to clean them after for a couple weeks or the antibiotics I was put on or whatever caused them, and I only know they're there because I own a light up dental mirror that made me very happy post surgery (as otherwise I'm tempted to poke). My dentist didn't seem concerned about them at the follow up, but I've considered air polishing if I can go a while without another dental emergency. I can't point at something and say that's why I want to get stains off my molars no one else knows about, but it's on my list of things I'm considering.

We are all just products of our time. Of course society influences us. We are net consumers as a species. We are bombarded by clever marketing daily and feel we have the latest this or look like that. In ten years time people will look back at lip fillers and cringe but by then we will be on to the next fad.

I don't think I agree actually, I don't shave my legs, for example, for one month to the next and wear dresses / skirts etc. But then sometimes I just crave that feeling of bed linen on freshly shaved legs. That is 100% for me as there is honestly no better feeling in the world!

@Wbeezer

If everyone is doing it just for themselves why do the things people choose to do change in cycles, im sure women who wore corsets felt they were doing it for themselves to feel "right". It's the fact that what people choose to do changes over time and cultures that's the give away that it's an internalised expression of an external pressure. Why do we think women look better with nice neat perms for a whole generation and then think long natural hair looks nicer unless we are influenced from outside ourselves?

Good question.

My fantasy cosmetic surgery would be a tummy tuck, possibly with a diastasis repair. I loathed the immediate change of a bag of crinkly decrepit flesh left after a huge bump and EMCS. I have no model aspirational build but like my body. I see my chunky legs, but I'm proud of my muscles that help me run and stay fit, but the saggy, numb belly suddenly left behind didn't even feel like a part of me. I resented the permanent reminder of a tough birth and other complications. I gave myself a decade to get used to it, and to some extent, I have. If you offered me guarenteed good results, and smoothest recovery, I'd be sorely tempted. In the real world I'm not so bothered about the risk.

But in the solitary island set up, I'd still be tempted for the fantasy surgery from a comfort point of view. I'd wear a bra for practical reasons and there is enough flabby movement of the belly that I'd have to keep it covered in high waists for control. It's uncomfortable when waists slump down and roll underneath. The circulation isn't great and the flesh gets cold. Improved core strength from more efficient muscle alignment would help with solo physical work.

As to society and its vision of beauty, I decided early on that I was not going to spend my life hiding it. I have no issue with people seeing it, and continue to wear cropped tops or bikinis when it suits me.

It's far more to do with me and my own comfort than society.

YANBU.

Some things people do like this are fine, others maybe unhealthy. But there is a real lack of self-awareness in not recognising how they are being socially influenced.

And I tend to think that self-awareness makes it more likely they will make poor decisions about such things.

That is, their poor self-awareness is more likely to lead to bad decisions.

My fantasy cosmetic surgery procedure would be arse implants. I have a skinny, boney arse that quickly gets cold and sore on hard seats like benches.

If I lived alone on a desert island I'd still want it because I'd be sitting on sand or bits of wood.

Lets see...

I enjoy smelling nice, so that why I buy perfume amd also the waybif I wear a top the second time it still smells of my favourite perfume. Just like how I love the fragrance from flowers and lavender that I've planted in my garden.

During lockdown I've been putting on red lipstick even when I'm not even on any video all, why? Because in winter the world is quite grey, clouds, rainy, dark, and there isn't much colour. So I like seeing colour whether its my clothes or lipstick and make up, it makes happy.

I have to wash my hair every day because its get oily over night and feels horrible if I don't. So again I'm doing it for me because it makes me feel better and in lockdown noone sees me but yet I still do it because I dont feel like a slob.

@TheresAnEyeInMeSoup

We are all just products of our time. Of course society influences us. We are net consumers as a species. We are bombarded by clever marketing daily and feel we have the latest this or look like that. In ten years time people will look back at lip fillers and cringe but by then we will be on to the next fad.

I agree.

**Tiggerishigh

DioneTheDiabolist
Do you not see why those things make you happy? Because society told you it's better like that.

What do you do to make yourself happy that is not influenced by society @Tiggerishigh?confused

I play sport
I go for long walks
I read books
I have sex that I enjoy
I eat nice food
I drink wine
I meet up with friends
I swim in the sea

I don't get your point.**

But how did you choose:

Where to live?
How to decorate your house?
Which school to send your kids to?
What to name your children?
The clothes you wear?
The car you drive?

Even the books you read, the wine you drink, the sport you play, and where you meet up with friends and the activities you do with them are influenced by society.

Don’t you get it?

Almost everything is influenced by society so your agreement falls down.

*argument. Bloody predictive text!

YANBU. There are so many women around my age using botox, lip fillers, etc in an effort to preserve themselves? Up close they look awful IMO.

Oh and slug eyebrows.

You're wrong on the uncomfortable shoes line. I love beautiful shoes - despise flats as they are generally fugly. I love shoes so much I dream about beautiful shoes. I wear my beautiful shoes and look at them in any reflective surface I can find. So no, I don't adore shoes because others tell me to. Indeed where I work is predominantly fugly flats. Whenever I meet someone, first thing I do is check out their shoes.

You're wrong on the uncomfortable shoes line
Doesn't that just mean you don't find them uncomfortable?! Not that anyone else is wrong.