When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

I'll add beautiful shoes are not uncomfortable.

Ill fitting shoes are uncomfortable and come in all appearances, even fugly flats.

No, OP is saying, or more alluding, to the point that high shoes are both uncomfortable and only worn to show others. I totally disagree with that statement.

I "fill my lips with crap" OP.
I do it because I like it.
I dont need other women judging me and telling me it's actually because society makes me feel insecure.
You're guilty of judging women in your posts just by questioning it tbh.

Your stomach is only "hideous" because that is what you've been told over and over all your life. You'd love it if it was seen as a wonderful belly that bore kids and was seen as the same kind of achievement as being very thin or having a PHD

Or like most people, she wouldn't think of either a flabby stomach or being very thin as an 'achievement'.

@Wbeezer

If everyone is doing it just for themselves why do the things people choose to do change in cycles, im sure women who wore corsets felt they were doing it for themselves to feel "right". It's the fact that what people choose to do changes over time and cultures that's the give away that it's an internalised expression of an external pressure. Why do we think women look better with nice neat perms for a whole generation and then think long natural hair looks nicer unless we are influenced from outside ourselves?

Of course there are external factors, but there's external factors for everything.

Why did we think that green bathroom suites looked good and now we don't? Why did generations love listening to disco music, and then newer generations loved synth pop and then Brit pop with each changing decade?

Is fashion (make up, hair styles, heels, etc) much different from that?

@k1233

No, OP is saying, or more alluding, to the point that high shoes are both uncomfortable and only worn to show others. I totally disagree with that statement.

I'm sure there's plenty written on the impact of high heeled shoes on women's feet and bodies.

@5128gap

This thread seems just another way to criticise, patronize and put women down. Its should be possible to discuss societal pressures on women, without being accusatory towards women, and wihout presenting as superior and more enlightened than those who make different choices. Feminism isn't a competition.

I want to reply to this because I brought feminism up earlier...

I really don't put down my women friends who wear make up. My post wasn't about what my friends do or don't wear. It was about me, getting ready to be a bride, being urged by astonished friends and loved ones to wear some: "won't you regret it? Even just a bit of concealer? I can lend you some blusher. After all it is your wedding day ". And I had to say to them "why aren't you nagging [OH name] because I'm pretty sure he's not wearing any either". That made them stop but also exchange glances like, never mind she's funny and stubborn.

Aibu to be a bit puzzled that my own loved ones were urging me to wear concealer, as if I'm blemished, but not my DH? (who tbf is flawless inside and out).

My post was nothing to do with me judging others for wearing make up, but everything to do with being a bit annoyed that so many people wanted me to, just because I a woman apparently.

@BasinHaircut

**Tiggerishigh

DioneTheDiabolist
Do you not see why those things make you happy? Because society told you it's better like that.

What do you do to make yourself happy that is not influenced by society @Tiggerishigh?confused

I play sport
I go for long walks
I read books
I have sex that I enjoy
I eat nice food
I drink wine
I meet up with friends
I swim in the sea

I don't get your point.**

But how did you choose:

Where to live?
How to decorate your house?
Which school to send your kids to?
What to name your children?
The clothes you wear?
The car you drive?

Even the books you read, the wine you drink, the sport you play, and where you meet up with friends and the activities you do with them are influenced by society.

Don’t you get it?

Almost everything is influenced by society so your agreement falls down.

I disagree with you.

The books I read isnt influenced by society, I love crime books, society hasn't influenced me in anyway. Ots judt what I enjoy reading.

The car I choose isn't influenced by society, I choose my car because I need a car eith big boot space to put my bike in. Society has not say in that matter.

I go cycling because I find it meditative and puts me in a great mood, I find it fun. Noone influenced me to do it and there is no way society influences me to go do 3hr rides either, I ride that long because I e joy it.

Where I live was based on what I coukd afford and distance to walk yo the train station because I didnt want a long commute and last thin I wanted to do is get on a bus after a train journey. Again society didnt make me choose that. I chose what I wanted.

There are a few issues with your post, the main one being the generalisation. While your title uses some, your posts are people,women etc.

Really? All women that alter their appearance in some way do it because "patriarchy "?

The second issue is you pushing the "why", as some gotcha moment of "ha! You're not doing it for yourself after all" , failing to realise that the whys become irrelevant after while. Someone who really dislikes a feature of themselves (especially for a long time) would still dislike it even if it became mainstream/normal.

Third , yes while you can blame socialisation,MM,society etc for it, we like what we like and some conditioning is hard to break free from,no matter how aware we are of it. You can overanalyse every single thing someone likes, they might even agree with you that is not necessary or possibly uncomfortable/harmful, a lot of people will still like them and possibly use them.

Instead of bashing people over the head with "but society" and "I don't believe you" why don't you just listen? You don't have to agree, but you can at least try and understand where other women are coming from.

@cyclingmad how are any of those things less influenced by society than ‘I get Botox because I think it makes me look nice’? If you really drill down into it....

I get your point and obviously what we aspire to look like is dependent on the beauty norms of the society we live in. It’s not something that originates solely within ourselves.

But, it is a universal human desire to dress up, style our hair, decorate our bodies. Every human society expresses itself through clothing and decoration, even those without mirrors. What we wear expresses our status or beliefs or attempts to make us attractive to potential mates.

It’s unrealistic to expect that in our particular society we can somehow rise above these universal urges.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

There are a few issues with your post, the main one being the generalisation. While your title uses some, your posts are people,women etc.

Really? All women that alter their appearance in some way do it because "patriarchy "?

The second issue is you pushing the "why", as some gotcha moment of "ha! You're not doing it for yourself after all" , failing to realise that the whys become irrelevant after while. Someone who really dislikes a feature of themselves (especially for a long time) would still dislike it even if it became mainstream/normal.

Third , yes while you can blame socialisation,MM,society etc for it, we like what we like and some conditioning is hard to break free from,no matter how aware we are of it. You can overanalyse every single thing someone likes, they might even agree with you that is not necessary or possibly uncomfortable/harmful, a lot of people will still like them and possibly use them.

Instead of bashing people over the head with "but society" and "I don't believe you" why don't you just listen? You don't have to agree, but you can at least try and understand where other women are coming from.

I really like this post, it covers absolutely everything I feel on the subject.

Why do we do anything actually? What compels us to do it and... why does it need analysis and evaluation all the time?

Can't we as women just be, without all this unnecessary and artificial pressure from our own sex even?

I agree with you, OP.

When I go out with my hair looking sleek and nice, I feel better about myself, because I look in shop windows and see someone who society would see worth in, the sort of person I see on TV and social media as a winner. Someone who is getting it right and ticking the boxes she's supposed to. When I go out with mad hair, I feel like I'm failing to live up to the standards everyone else is managing to attain and it makes me feel bad about myself.

If I do my hair for me, it's because of lessons society teaches about what we should value in women, rather than because I intrinsically want my hair to be frizz-free.

The books I read isnt influenced by society, I love crime books, society hasn't influenced me in anyway. Ots judt what I enjoy reading.

The car I choose isn't influenced by society, I choose my car because I need a car eith big boot space to put my bike in. Society has not say in that matter.

But which crime books do you read? Presumably ones which are popular or at least available in the UK - not ones that might be really popular in Iceland but that nobody has decided to translate into English? That's society influencing what you read.

A friend in rural Canada loves cycling too, so she puts her bike into the back of her pickup truck. Almost everyone in her area drives a truck. If you lived where she did, you'd be more likely to have a truck instead of a car with a big boot. So society probably does have a say in the matter.

@Siepie

The books I read isnt influenced by society, I love crime books, society hasn't influenced me in anyway. Ots judt what I enjoy reading.

The car I choose isn't influenced by society, I choose my car because I need a car eith big boot space to put my bike in. Society has not say in that matter.

But which crime books do you read? Presumably ones which are popular or at least available in the UK - not ones that might be really popular in Iceland but that nobody has decided to translate into English? That's society influencing what you read.

A friend in rural Canada loves cycling too, so she puts her bike into the back of her pickup truck. Almost everyone in her area drives a truck. If you lived where she did, you'd be more likely to have a truck instead of a car with a big boot. So society probably does have a say in the matter.

The books I read come from UK and other countries I've travelled to and obviously thr need to be translated in English for me to read because I'm not great at learning languages so im hardly going to try and learn a language to read a book.

I don't live in Canada so there is no point using that as an example. I live in the UK I coukd easily choose a 4x4 as most people would say that's what alot of Londkners have. Yet I didnt pick what the London society would influence me to do.

So to say that society influences my choices is wrong.

Can't we as women just be, without all this unnecessary and artificial pressure from our own sex even?
It was a question from op, a discussion. If you're interpreting any question on the subject as pressure you probably need to think about why, when you're claiming not to care?

I hate my saggy huge boobs.
They get in the way.
Anything I wear, I just see boob.
They swing around in irritating fashion, and get into awkward positions when I sleep and I have to re-arrange them.
They get sweaty underneath.

My husband doesn’t give a shit.
Society doesn’t know - because of my bras.

I don’t shave my legs, I don’t wear heels, I don’t wear make up, I have grey hair. I’m not overly concerned what society thinks of how I look.

I am still considering surgery.
These tits would also piss me off alone on a desert island. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I guess they are doing it to make themselves feel better. 🤷‍♀️

I do care about the pressure, GreyhoundG1rl, I care about that very much as I don't see the need for it nor the point of it.

I expect I'll be told that I'm being defensive, a catch-all term designed to shut women up from querying anything in a way that the questioner doesn't like.

I'm not particularly erudite on the subject; AccidentallyOnPurpose's post is though. I'm often to be found on 'hair removal' threads defending the hair removers who are pilloried for their choice. This thread seems to be of a similar flavour.

@Siepie
^Of course there are external factors, but there's external factors for everything.

Why did we think that green bathroom suites looked good and now we don't? Why did generations love listening to disco music, and then newer generations loved synth pop and then Brit pop with each changing decade?

Is fashion (make up, hair styles, heels, etc) much different from that?^

You seem to be agreeing with me?
My point was about fashion, fashion changes what women/people feel they need to do for themselves therefore what we choose to do is not totally under our control, its strongly influenced by subconcious pressure from outside.

I have a wax purely for the feel, nothing aesthetic involved. So I'd say this is entirely for myself?

I would also love a tummy tuck due to excess skin where I've lost a lot of weight. Again, I don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks I look like, I don't like it and yes I would still have it done if I lived alone on a desert island.

Stop being so judgey about something that doesn't impact your life in any way shape or form.

@Tiggerishigh

What I'm saying is that I don't care if people do all the stuff but don't pretend it is all for you and that your choice is not a result of others perceptions and societies ideals, that is my point.

Saying "I did it for me" is not the same as saying "I did it because society said I should".

The former implies they don't care what others think but doing it makes them happy.

The latter implies they do care what other people think and are doing it even though it may not actually make them happy.

You are assuming these are one and the same thing OP. They are not.

I work from home but wear nice clothes and put my face on every day. Why? Because I feel better about myself. I'm quite sure I'd do this on a desert island too. Just on the off chance a hunky Robinson Crusoe type hunk turned up Seriously though, I think it's about feeling feminine and attractive which is inbuilt in us as nature intended. If it makes you feel good, where's the harm? I get what you're saying OP, but it's not always about what other people think. If you think you look good, you feel good 😌

@5128gap

This thread seems just another way to criticise, patronize and put women down. Its should be possible to discuss societal pressures on women, without being accusatory towards women, and wihout presenting as superior and more enlightened than those who make different choices. Feminism isn't a competition.

Quite!

[quote Wbeezer]@Siepie
^Of course there are external factors, but there's external factors for everything.

Why did we think that green bathroom suites looked good and now we don't? Why did generations love listening to disco music, and then newer generations loved synth pop and then Brit pop with each changing decade?

Is fashion (make up, hair styles, heels, etc) much different from that?^

You seem to be agreeing with me?
My point was about fashion, fashion changes what women/people feel they need to do for themselves therefore what we choose to do is not totally under our control, its strongly influenced by subconcious pressure from outside.[/quote]
I agree with you, I just don't think it's limited to make up or fashion in the way that OP implies.

I can't imagine anyone posting a thread questioning whether someone ripping out an old bathroom suite was really doing it for herself.