When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

But if I lived on a desert island I'd probably be naked all the time but I find that's frowned upon in Tesco

I don’t know, I’ve been home shielding for over a year on and off with disabled DC. There were weeks where we only saw delivery people and my parents. I still put on make up, blow dried my hair, wore what would be considered ‘sexy’ underwear and painted my nails, got dressed everyday, no tracksuit bottoms or onesies, I do it for my mental health, it’s part of my routine of self care and as a single parent/carer self care is important. I also have slowly built up a home gym which I use everyday and eat well, a healthy strong body is needed to deal with DC and my mental health.
I am also single and not looking for a relationship at all so it’s not to attract a man, I’m not interested.
However, having a disabled DC does attract what I could call negative attention from society sometimes, maybe my made up face and painted nails are me saying to the world, I’m coping, I’m good! It’s maybe a happy face mask which sometimes I have been hiding my stress and sadness behind.

I have discovered the only thing I truly do for myself is wear perfume. I love the fragrance.

Wearing makeup, bra, uncomfortable clothes or shoes, plucking/waxing/shaving/dyeing any hair etc have all gone out the window. But being clean and wearing perfume is essential.

Well you’re over simplifying it.

When people say they are doing it for themselves they literally mean it is born out of their own need.

If you were to press them then they may well be (shock horror!) more than capable of critically analysing WHY they feel the need to take that particular action.
Just because they aren’t openly saying “well I’m having my tits done because they’re down to my knees and I know that’s not deemed an attractive trait in a 30 year old single woman” - doesn’t mean they aren’t aware of it and fully accepting that in an ideal would they wouldn’t need to even CARE about sagging tits.

So your actual gripe is those people who aren’t willing (or perhaps not yet capable) to analyse the cultural and societal conditions and expectations and the impact of that upon us and admit is the driving force behind most of these decisions - there are tons of legitimate procedures which other benefits to a persons comfort.

I do agree that we make most of these decisions born from societal pressure to conform but how is that any different to the other decisions we make ? To have a family, to live in a house, to study or educate ourselves, to travel? All of these things are made up of trends, pressure, behaviours, expectations....

I am more than capable of critically analysing why I want my nose straightened - it doesn’t make me a bad feminist to see the bigger picture but still choose that option. Or maybe it does? But I’m ok with that. No one lives 100% within the lines

I hate it if my legs and pits are hairy, so I shave them for me. It's not because I am conditioned to do this , it's just personal choice as I hate the way they look and feel otherwise. It doesn't bother me that other people don't shave their legs , couldn't care less to be honest.
I like to put on a bit of make up as it makes me look a bit less shit in the mornings.

@GoWalkabout

I love different international cultures around adornment that you see around the world, including make up artists and fashions here, but I do dislike it when it moves into body modification (breast augmentation, cosmetic surgery, foot binding, extreme piercing or rings that stretch the ears or neck) or where what is considered beautiful is very narrow, or expectations of one sex are time consuming, restrictive or expensive. And I agree with you, its unusual for people to be able to step outside these expectations completely.

Same.

This is like the no unselfish act theory. People’s self perception, self value etc are formed by the environment. If your family values intelligence above beauty you will consider this important to your self perception, money is the same. People may well be doing it for themselves -just because their perspective is influenced by societal norms and values does not change that.

Well of course op, no one makes decisions inside a vacuum, we're all a product of our socialisation. We're constantly fed societies expectation of what beauty us until we buy into it.

When women are saying they're doing it for themselves. They are. They don't like the way they look so they're changing it. Yes the way they perceive beauty has been influenced by society and that why they don't like that thing about themselves, but they're still doing it because there's something they don't like that they want to change.

@Umbivalent

YABU. They are doing it for themselves - for their self-image. Nowt wrong with that.

Why does it bother you so much?

Why does it bother YOU so much to see it questioned?

But the idea doesn't originate from within. It comes initially from social aesthetic ideals, which are then internalised.

Agree with this, I don't have a problem with it & quite enjoy getting dressed up & having my hair done etc but it makes me feel better because that's how I have being conditioned to think I assumed?

My daughter calls in the internalised male gaze, apparently its a thing. We're conditioned to believe our worth is based on our attractiveness and derive happiness and validation from it. Even though I understand and acknowledge it, I still want a nose job!

I get that if you're on an Island there's nobody to see you but in the real world again, I know that you can be certain you're not looking for a man and still want to look good.

I'm 50 and it's not about men anymore, I know that only 65 year olds would date me!

But if I go for a job interview I want to have a pleasant appearance. I want to look stylish and healthy and content and I don't want my jowls to take over my face and kill my look.

When I go out with friends, I want them to like looking at my face like I like looking at their lovely faces.

I don't want to be unattractive for various reasons, there is a social capital to looking good.

You lose any ''capital'' you hung on to as you age if you look drab. I wish it weren't so.

Men shmen. But a face lift?! wouldn't rule it out.

@Tal45

It all stems from people being incredibly judgemental IMO. People may wear make up/have surgery to try to avoid getting judged by others or to try to stop the negative judgements they make of themselves - ie not liking what they see in the mirror. Whichever is the case they say they're doing it for themselves because they feel they'll get judged if they say anything else. Being able to make judgements is important in evolutionary terms - but it can also be a stick to beat yourself and or feel beaten by others with.

Well said.

So while society definitely plants the seeds of what is attractive and definitely prunes those ideas as we grow into adulthood, humans are hardwired to respond to attractive people.

That's true but often doesn't explain the plastic surgery/make up trends eg sharpie eyebrows, inflatable lips.

@DioneTheDiabolist

Do you not see why those things make you happy? Because society told you it's better like that.

What do you do to make yourself happy that is not influenced by society @Tiggerishigh?

I play sport I go for long walks I read books I have sex that I enjoy I eat nice food I drink wine I meet up with friends I swim in the sea

I don't get your point.

I don't have surgery on my healthy body or wear uncomfortable shoes.

But that wasn't my point anyway. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone. Just that people could stop pretending they are breaking their nose for themselves and not an aesthetic that is fashionable

@StrawberrySquash

YANBU. I don't think that's necessarily terrible - after all much of the joy in life comes from how we interact with other people and how we express ourselves. And that's fine. I miss putting on nice clothes and having other people admire them. I don't really understand why we pretend it's all about doing it for ourselves.

Having said that I feel there is too much emphasis on how women look and that has a negative effect on people. It's like this weird need to be believe everyone is beautiful. Most people aren't by definition AND THAT'S OKAY. I don't pick my friends for their looks, they mean way more to me than that. And my friends' and family's faces bring me joy because they belong to people I love.

Good post.

I mean some people risk/loose their lives in pursuit of looking a certain way or end up looking worse. That's sad.

This thread reminds me of my favourite saying:

"You're not ugly, you're just broke."

Yabu. I’m losing weight. I’m doing because I want to feel better about myself.

Well ''society'' hasn't convinced the majority of us that inflatable lips or eyelashes like antlers or orange skin or slug eyebrows are desirable.

So we are clearly able to filter the messages coming towards us to some degree.

I get what the other poster said about the internalised male gaze though. But even with a group of other women there is a social capital to not looking shit.

What'd be the benefit to not doing your hair/makeup and dressing well if you enjoy it and don't find it a burden?

Anything I do for looks, I enjoy doing it. I don't do anything I find tedious.

When women say they are wearing lipstick/getting Botox/having a spray tan for themselves, that’s what they mean. Those things make them feel better/happier/more confident. Why is that hard to believe?

Why it is the case that society has made them feel that they are better/more attractive/more valuable if they are thinner/younger/sexier is a conversation to have about patriarchal culture, but that doesn’t mean women are doing it ‘for the men’, they are doing what makes them feel better. They are not being disingenuous, or naive.

@Barneybear11

Yabu. I’m losing weight. I’m doing because I want to feel better about myself.

Think thats fair enough

Lots of people lose weight for health reasons

@VladmirsPoutine

This thread reminds me of my favourite saying:

"You're not ugly, you're just broke."

ha ha! true.

If you ever watch makeoverguy on youtube you'll be even more convinced of this!