When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

'For other people' and 'how they are seen by others' are two very different things.

People gain or lose power in society according to 'how they are seen by others'. Be that their intellectual ability, wealth, how cultured they are, their sense of self-knowledge and confidence, or just whether they have the energy and self-discipline to get up and dressed well each day.

Yes, of course you're right.
There's nothing wrong with any of these things, but people should be honest about them.

I agree. Even when I’m home alone and put make-up on I don’t think it’s really for me- it’s so I can assure myself that I’m not terribly unattractive!

@Tiggerishigh

Umbivalent. Of course we all know how it works but why do people go on about how none of these decisions about surgery are to do with anyone else or how they view them.

People, on this very thread, are explaining their motivations. You are choosing not to listen to them.

Appearance/attractiveness is arguably men's clear no1 criteria when choosing a woman to procreate with. Generalising a but its basically the case. Women generally prioritise other traits of which attractiveness is just one: giving equal priority also to strength and social status (in modern society - salary - security).

There's nothing wrong with doing it for the approval of others and as a result making yourself feel better but then where do you draw the line? Should we stop showering regularly, brushing our hair regularly? Buying stylish clothes? How I look is a hugely important part of me.

I think it’s partly true.
Breast reduction for back pain is for herself.
Rhinoplasty because she hates her nose probably is about how she feels others see her....but if that undermines her self confidence such that she’s prepared to have surgery then it is for her. She might not give two figs on a desert island but most of us don’t live on a desert island.

I don’t get it personally. I think surgery should be to cure disease or injury. I think the benefits are mainly to independent healthcare providers and cosmetic surgeons and that’s profiting from others vulnerabilities. It isn’t my choice, my body or my self-confidence though.

@Tiggerishigh

What I'm saying is that I don't care if people do all the stuff but don't pretend it is all for you and that your choice is not a result of others perceptions and societies ideals, that is my point.

.... and if people choose to believe that they are doing it for themselves, not because of societal pressures/judgemental women, etc., how does that affect you?

Why are you so very bothered by what other people do and their reasons for doing it? Do you need validation of your view?

When I make myself look good I feel good.

I haven't had a nose job or any sort of surgery or fillers but in regards to making myself look better whether it be make up or hair being done it is definitely for me to feel good.

You're right.

They may not be being explicitly told by their DH to go and get bigger boobs but they're not doing it in a cultural vacuum.

I think you can do things that are designed to improve you aesthetically purely to boost your own self-esteem and that's absolutely fine -- I've done it myself.

But its also true that without millennia of pressure to look a certain way, women wouldn't have the set of assumptions that underpin the desire to be thinner, have plumper lips, better eyebrows, whatever it is.

@CuriousSeal

I wear make-up and dress up when I have no plans to leave the house. I do it for me.

To be honest, I don't really understand how people slob about in 'lounge wear' in their house all weekend. It would make me feel down to look shit all day, even if no one saw.

I do this too - even if I have no plans to leave the house I’ll always comb my hair and put on makeup. Not much, admittedly - I’ll powder my nose and add a tiny bit of eyeliner and mascara. But I just feel better for having a bit of makeup on. Likewise I will always have a morning shower and get dressed properly (as in jeans and decent top, always wear a bra, I don’t get ‘dressed up’ in smart clothes, but I don’t own any joggers or loungewear).

I would genuinely say that this is for my own benefit and not anyone else’s, so perhaps these women feel the same.

It all stems from people being incredibly judgemental IMO. People may wear make up/have surgery to try to avoid getting judged by others or to try to stop the negative judgements they make of themselves - ie not liking what they see in the mirror. Whichever is the case they say they're doing it for themselves because they feel they'll get judged if they say anything else.
Being able to make judgements is important in evolutionary terms - but it can also be a stick to beat yourself and or feel beaten by others with.

Tiny babies smile more at conventionally 'pretty' people according to studies. Something to do with the symmetry of their features being pleasing, on a very primal level.

So while society definitely plants the seeds of what is attractive and definitely prunes those ideas as we grow into adulthood, humans are hardwired to respond to attractive people.

It's not surprising that most people enjoy feeling that they're not hideous/basically look nice

But we live in society! We don't live on a desert island. We continue to be judged and valued for these things. It's bizarre to compare the two.

No one knows my boobs are like saggy bags of water because I wear good bras. I’d still get a breast lift if I had the money though because I hate the way they look when I’m naked.
My face I would change for other people though because I look like the back end of a bus. It would be a kindness to society.

@SaturdayRocks

You are, of course, 100% right. Of course you are! How could you not be?

And I say this as someone who wears make-up, removes body hair, etc.

I totally see the double standard - it’s blatant and it’s in our faces every day.

But this thread will not go well. People get very, very defensive when they’re questioned about their ‘choices’. Very, very defensive.

Spot on!

Lockdown has largely proved the point - joggers and messy buns have hugely grown in popularity!

@OunceOfFlounce

It blows my mind when people can't think this through all the way to where the likes/dislikes, comfort/discomfort comes from in the first place.

Agreed.

@Tiggerishigh

But Rufusthesniggeringreindeer, you wouldn't do it if nobody ever saw whatever you had done, like it was an organ inside your body or as I say, if there were no other people.

I sometimes wear make up when I won’t be leaving the house, I even live alone. Most of the time I don’t wear any for work, it’s just if I feel like popping it on for myself solely. My other half couldn’t give a crap so it’s definitely not for anybody else I encounter

This has given me food for thought. When I'm camping I never care how I look, I just want to be comfortable, but as soon as I'm back in 'the real world' I want to look good and polished again. I'm trying to retrain myself to care less now that I have less time. I had an ex who used to tell me I wasn't attractive to him because I didn't look like the made up girls on Instagram that he followed and he grew up on a tourist island where every girl he met was polished. It put a huge dent in my confidence but he was really just mirroring what goes on inside our subconscious anyway when we're looking at pictures or how people look in the high street. I even judge myself based on my younger self when I had more time and energy for dressing up. I wish I could break those thoughts out so I can have more time for using my brain on things I actually enjoy like studying and art.

I can't imagine many women would want to wer high heels on the desert island "for myself".

I have filler and Botox and they make me feel wonderful. They’re specifically targeting things about myself that I have always hated. Since I was little. Finding out as an adult that I can ‘fix’ how they look has been ace.

I realise I’m sticking my head over the parapet to say how I do it for me, for the OP to yell at me that I only think I’m doing it for me when in fact society has told me to do it...

YANBU. I don't think that's necessarily terrible - after all much of the joy in life comes from how we interact with other people and how we express ourselves. And that's fine. I miss putting on nice clothes and having other people admire them. I don't really understand why we pretend it's all about doing it for ourselves.

Having said that I feel there is too much emphasis on how women look and that has a negative effect on people. It's like this weird need to be believe everyone is beautiful. Most people aren't by definition AND THAT'S OKAY. I don't pick my friends for their looks, they mean way more to me than that. And my friends' and family's faces bring me joy because they belong to people I love.

Do you not see why those things make you happy? Because society told you it's better like that.

What do you do to make yourself happy that is not influenced by society @Tiggerishigh?

Ofc it's societal pressure and the ebbs and flows of what is 'en vogue'. Anybody remember the 90s waif-thin look? How's that faring now in the age of the Kardashians and young women quite literally dying to get buttock implants? Of course it might make "you feel better" but where exactly does that feeling come from? Societal pressure and obsessions with physical appearance.