When some women say they are doing it for themselves

[Tiggerishigh]

You know when people say they are doing something for themselves, I mean like having surgery on their nose or saying they wear certain clothes for themselves, AIBU to say that they are not at all?

If they were on a desert island alone they wouldn't give a shit about whether their breasts or nose are a particular aesthetic. If they lived in a different world where those things didn't matter they wouldn't feel it would boost their confidence or whatever. Of course it is for other people and how they are seen by others.

I don't mind if people want to wear very uncomfortable underwear or cut parts of their body off but don't make out it's nothing to do with society and all for yourself.

Sadly it's mostly women who wear uncomfortable shoes and clothes and fill their lips with crap etc.

@Dandelionsandskylarks

And what’s the point of such a thread anyway? So other women can read it and be ‘enlightened’ by the fact that they are conforming to societies demands? Or to make them feel like that thing they enjoyed doing, that thing that made them feel good, is now tainted because it turns out they’re only doing it for men? It’s women bashing, end of.

I didn't start this thread but the point of my posts is - you do you, but don't be part of the societal pressure on other women. (I don't mean you personally obvs! I mean general "you" like everyone)

Eg: don't urge a bride to wear make up as if her face is inadequate (my experience)
Don't press Bio oil on your teen daughter if she has stretch marks (topic from another thread)
Don't buy the kind of celeb magazines that mock "candid" photos of celeb women
Keep doing what you like with your own body, but have open expectations of others' bodies, I guess is what I'm saying.

Nb I'm replying to a pp, but when I'm saying "you" I'm not addressing them, it's just the general "you" meaning everyone

If we are considering it from the aspect of society that has set up beauty standards, then We are not doing it for ourselves (some are for health reasons). But if we consider only narrower individual point of view where the option is doing it to specifically to other person (husband likes big boobs so will get implants) or to yourself to get more confidence then I'd hope that a lot of times it is for yourself.

@Mummy1608 I agree completely, but what I’m trying to say is I think it works both ways. No way should anyone have tried to cajole you into wearing make up, but at the same time the OP should let women wear what they want when they want and not try and make them feel bad for it (not you, others)

"And what’s the point of such a thread anyway? So other women can read it and be ‘enlightened’ by the fact that they are conforming to societies demands? Or to make them feel like that thing they enjoyed doing, that thing that made them feel good, is now tainted because it turns out they’re only doing it for men? It’s women bashing, end of"

Like I said previously I buy into it but I still think it's good to have the conversations particularly as the beauty ideals seem to be getting narrower.

No one lives in complete isolation on a desert island, do they? So yeah societal effect on self esteem/image for sure but they want to feel happy and confident when they look in the mirror and I think that counts entirely as 'for themselves'

Some people need to make changes for their self esteem. Some people learn to accept themselves for their self esteem. Some people just let their self esteem be low.

Some people get upset when other people do things differently to them.

I actually made my changes when my self esteem was higher. I didn't do it sooner because I thought it was shallow and vain and morally inferior, and on a certain level I felt I deserved to be ugly.

Once I had found my self respect, I decided to do what I wanted to do so that I wouldn't feel self conscious, ugly and unhappy when I didn't need to, and I didn't care if others thought it made me a lesser human.

I don't have any cosmetic procedures but I bleach my hair, wear makeup and wear outfits that make me look good. All for me. I feel sexier and happier when I do. Not because I think men like it (and I'm happily married BTW) or society thinks I should. I know plenty of women who don't wear makeup and that's fine too. The constant commentary on women's bodies is what's annoying. Do what you want and let others do what they want.

When you only love your body when you like the way you look, that's not body positivity - that's objectification.

The fact that some posters have drawn comparisons between cars & jewellery to bodies is an example of this.

Cars and jewellery are objects.

A body is not an object. It facilitates your life - from your first breath to your last. It brings life, it allows you to interact with the world. Some bodies function better than others, but without exception, they are miraculous. Sometimes we need help, if we're in pain, or something traumatic has happened.

But the fact that our amazing bodies are valued primarily on looks, and to achieve this people will risk their lives and functionality if body parts through purely cosmetic surgery is a sober thought, and the 'why' is worth reflecting on.

Why would being asked to debate this make you feel personally attacked? Why would you frame it as woman-bashing to help women remember they are miracles in their own right, irrespective of adipose fat, loose skin or off white teeth?

I love dressing up, wearing lashes & makeup. But I have found greater peace in knowing my body IS good and appreciating it for all it can do, rather than valuing it on how it looks.

When you only love your body when you like the way you look, that's not body positivity - that's objectification.

not really

I don't like my body when it's flabby, I like it toned. There's nothing miraculous for me in being lazy and content with a substandard body.

I was grateful after having my kids, but I wasn't remotely happy with the way my belly looked post-birth. No drama about it, it's a natural process, but it's not something positive in any way.

I also don't like my body when there's dry skin either.

We live in a wonderful word where we don't' have to put up with negative things and we don't have to settle. We should be proud and grateful to make the most of what we have.

@GroggyLegs

When you only love your body when you like the way you look, that's not body positivity - that's objectification.

The fact that some posters have drawn comparisons between cars & jewellery to bodies is an example of this.

Cars and jewellery are objects.

A body is not an object. It facilitates your life - from your first breath to your last. It brings life, it allows you to interact with the world. Some bodies function better than others, but without exception, they are miraculous. Sometimes we need help, if we're in pain, or something traumatic has happened.

But the fact that our amazing bodies are valued primarily on looks, and to achieve this people will risk their lives and functionality if body parts through purely cosmetic surgery is a sober thought, and the 'why' is worth reflecting on.

Why would being asked to debate this make you feel personally attacked? Why would you frame it as woman-bashing to help women remember they are miracles in their own right, irrespective of adipose fat, loose skin or off white teeth?

I love dressing up, wearing lashes & makeup. But I have found greater peace in knowing my body IS good and appreciating it for all it can do, rather than valuing it on how it looks.

What are you on about? The OP is talking purely about looks so your ramble is contradictory. If a women wants to do something with or to her own body that’s up to her, she doesn’t need to be told that she’s only doing it because ‘patriarchy’. You can love what your body does for you as well as being Interested in the cosmetic side. Some people see fashion as art. Some see body modification as art. Some see make up as art. My body produced, carried and fed my child but it’s also sexual. You can have varying views of your own physical and mental self, you can put on high heels without having to admonish yourself or remind yourself that your heart beats.

But Rufusthesniggeringreindeer, you wouldn't do it if nobody ever saw whatever you had done, like it was an organ inside your body or as I say, if there were no other people.

Yes and no. You can't look at it from outside of social context because we live in social context. Our identities and judgements are formed in social context.

They are doing it for themselves so they look good in their own eyes--- but these are set according to cultural standards. And also so that they feel they look good in the eyes of others.

So it's for them, as a result of external stuff. It's pretty standard human/animal behaviour. People have been adapting to social norms and reaching for cultural ideals for always. Even animals aim to be or mate with the strongest male. the one with the flashiest feathers, the one who can jump highest etc (yes I've been watching Attenborough). Birds have been seen to fake these things, and even pinch stuff from others to get to the top. It's not exactly the same as human social culture but it's very similar.

@Lessthanaballpark

The accusation that feminists think they’re better than other women who make different choices is bogus.

What feminism argues IMO is that one can’t help but be influenced by society. We all are, feminists and non-feminists alike. It’s natural and normal to want the approval of others.

But the lie that we have been gaslighted into believing is that we are not doing these things for others’ approval but for ourselves.

It’s very obvious to me why: the beauty industry knows that it is no longer socially acceptable to advertise beauty products to us as making us more attractive to men so they sell it to under the guise of doing it for ourselves. They have dressed it up as female empowerment as a kind of liberal choice feminism.

I shave my legs. It makes me feel more confident and less ugly. Who has given me the idea that it will make me more confident and less ugly? Why are hairy legs considered unattractive in a woman?

The message I’m getting from the OP is “do what you want. But don’t fool yourself into believing you’re not influenced by external factors”

True feminists would not think they are better than other women dependent on these type of choices, no. However, it is blatantly obvious from the condescending tone of some of the posts that some 'feminists' think they are doing feminism better than others, because they are intelligent and enlightened enough to see what other women can't. They assume they have to explain to other women how patriarchy works, and that their choices are not their own. They assume that women disagree with them because they don't understand. They put pressure on women to 'admit' to motivations they do not feel they have. They blame women for pressure on other women by implying they are contributing to the problem. They fail to listen to other women sharing their experiences and thoughts. That there are societal influences and pressures on women regarding appearance is hardly ground breaking thinking. We were debating this in the 80s, and anyone with a passing interest in these issues could hardly have missed it. Given it's also a fairly straightforward concept, I think its incredibly patronising to use terms such as 'fool yourself' when other women share why they make their choices.

Thank you @5128gap you’re summed up articulately in one post what I have been repeatedly trying to in several!

@GroggyLegs My post to you was really rude, I apologise. Have become way too wound up about this thread, time for me to step back! Again, apologies for my attitude towards you.

Dandelionsandskylarks - I appreciate that. Thank you.

It's a very emotive subject.

I think you are missing the point OP. Go and find yourself a remote island somewhere with a group of people on it. Let's say they have never seen Instagram and Facebook or Snapchat. They will still look the same, dress the same or not dress the same, wear the same decorations etc. Whether that is in favour of their patriarchal or matriarchal hierarchy structure. Because humans are generally sociable creatures who mimic one another's behaviours in an attempt to assimilate.

@Mummy1608 I think Radical Feminism may be for you.

@KindleRemote

I think you are missing the point OP. Go and find yourself a remote island somewhere with a group of people on it. Let's say they have never seen Instagram and Facebook or Snapchat. They will still look the same, dress the same or not dress the same, wear the same decorations etc. Whether that is in favour of their patriarchal or matriarchal hierarchy structure. Because humans are generally sociable creatures who mimic one another's behaviours in an attempt to assimilate.

And if that’s the case, you’re agreeing with the OP. That when you dig right down, they’re not actually doing it for themselves.

Think of all the companies that would go bust if all women were complately ok with the way they look ?

Completely

I wonder how many of those 'feminists' criticising women for shaving their legs, doing their hair and putting on makeup realise they are saying almost exactly the same thing as controlling men who want women barefoot, hairylegged and pregnant?

'You're putting on makeup because you want to attract men', 'you're dressed like that to turn men on', 'you're not going out wearing that/painting your nails/going out at all because you're going to pick a new man up'.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

I wonder how many of those 'feminists' criticising women for shaving their legs, doing their hair and putting on makeup realise they are saying almost exactly the same thing as controlling men who want women barefoot, hairylegged and pregnant?

'You're putting on makeup because you want to attract men', 'you're dressed like that to turn men on', 'you're not going out wearing that/painting your nails/going out at all because you're going to pick a new man up'.

I’m a feminist. Have been for as long as I could think.

I shave my legs, style my hair and wear make-up literally every day.

But I’m under no illusion as to why I do it, and am not deluded enough to think it’s a choice I’d necessarily make, if humankind and society were different.

Why do people find it so difficult to have this discussion - ask questions, probe why we do things - without taking it personally and getting defensive?

The message I’m getting from the OP is “do what you want. But don’t fool yourself into believing you’re not influenced by external factors"

But saying you do something for yourself is not the same as denying you were influenced by external factors!

I accept that my desire to get rid of my skin flap on my stomach is because every magazine shows women with flat toned abs, I've been trained to believe this is the ideal and so yes, I am influenced by external factors and I don't deny that.

But when I say that I want a tummy tuck FOR ME what I mean is that I am doing it because it will make me happy, I am not doing under any kind of duress from my DH or in order to say, attract a man.

I happily wear bikinis in public, so I'm really not bothered by what anyone else thinks I look like. But I care about what I think I look like and I think I would look better with a tummy tuck.

THIS is what women mean when they say they are doing it for themselves.

This is not denying that we are influenced by external factors.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Why do people find it so difficult to have this discussion - ask questions, probe why we do things - without taking it personally and getting defensive?

Because the OPs posts and some others on here isn't asking any questions, it's telling women "you are wrong and foolish".

Some of the posts are condescending and patronising which funnily enough, does tend to get peoples heckles up.