Suddenly so angry - being shouted at and leered at just going for a walk with my DD

[slipperandtherose]

Suddenly so angry - being shouted at and leered at just going for a walk with my DD.
Just that.... My DD is 16, during the last year we have started walking together. One of our walks is along a fairly busy road in the evening. Every walk, cars will go by and beep, sometimes men shout out.... even had middle aged men turn their interior light on and drive past slowly.
It's really intimidating and has made us physIcally jump at times.
This is putting my daughter off going for walks on her own.
I realised that women and girls have been putting up with this level of intimidation since we became teenagers. We've had to put up with this...
Also I have had really arrogant reactions from all ages of men in cars, where they make a point of swearing / slowing up / shouting ... when they feel you haven't let them through etc... Would they have had this reaction if I was a man? Probably not...
There is low level misogyny just in the most normal everyday activities, and it's suddenly making me really cross, probably because I can see how it affects my DD.
AIBU to suggest that there should be some sort of addition to PSHE teachings in schools that includes the awareness of what is not okay in a civilised society, because there are still too many young men that don't seem to know that this is wrong?

[msbehavin]

[quote belinda789]@msbehavin
I agree with everything you say in your post but your sentence at the end “men have the right to treat women as they wish because women need men and men don't need women” might cause some on here to disagree.
Men see females as madly attractive so do need women (for sex). And because girls and women seem to spend most of their waking lives making themselves “attractive”, the next generation of the human race is guaranteed. It is nature. However we are now supposed to be civilised and have standards of decency and laws to ensure civilised behaviour. Men and boys should be reminded of this fact and the fact that in the year 2021 they are not cave men.[/quote]
Hi @belinda789 - totally agree - what I meant by that comment was that society tells us women need men to validate their existence in a way that men don't need women to validate theirs.

As in men don't dream of a wedding day. Women do. Because women are conditioned to believe their lives are worthless unless they're part of a couple. Unless they've had someone 'put a ring on it' and become a 'Mrs'. Men are not brought up with the same message. They absolutely do need women for sex - but attitudinally it comes down to the old spinster v bachelor dichotomy - a spinster is an object of pity, who's missed out on the best of life in being unmarried, while a bachelor is considered to be living his best life until he gets 'tied down' with the old 'ball and chain'. Fascinating, isn't it.

[GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal]

I went out for a walk with my DD a couple of weeks ago, and had three separate middle aged men turn their heads and leer as we passed. Couldn't figure out why - I'm in my 40s, and was very much dressed down in a parka, messy bun, no make up and glasses.

Then I realised - they weren't leering at me, they were leering at my DD. Who is nine.

[gamerchick]

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal

I went out for a walk with my DD a couple of weeks ago, and had three separate middle aged men turn their heads and leer as we passed. Couldn't figure out why - I'm in my 40s, and was very much dressed down in a parka, messy bun, no make up and glasses.

Then I realised - they weren't leering at me, they were leering at my DD. Who is nine.

Always the same. Men start to assess our bodies mostly from puberty. We've all put up with it.

Like that creepy handshake some middle-aged men would do where they would tickle your palm with a finger while doing it. Making is uncomfortable without us knowing why or what it meant.

All that shit starts when we're young.

[belinda789]

@ msbehavin
Women do all they can to get a man. You are right in that men are needed to validate their existence – so women do need men. Some not so much though. I qualified in my profession at 19; bought my house when 21 and thereafter, concentrated on building up my business. However, where men were concerned I was fastidious and experience taught me that most men were fast and hideous – (and I experienced just as much predatory behaviour from men growing up as the posters on here). There were a number of men in my life who thought they had a chance and some actually proposed marriage. None was “Mr. Right”. Those men needed me more than I needed them. I did not need any of them to validate my existence - thankfully. Incidentally, your post is the best one on here......

[slipperandtherose]

It seems that there are a number of men in multiple age groups that simply enjoy intimidating girls and women.
Cat calls are degrading and can make women and teens incredibly self conscious, and invaded... unable to go out for a walk/run alone in some cases...
Beeping and leering is intimidating and scary especially in the darker hours, these men know this. We can't make excuses for them.
My DD wears joggers or leggings and a hoody or puffa coat for our walks...
But in the summer she may want to wear shorts and s summer top for our walks... I'm dreading the reaction for her. What about street joggers _ women should be able to run in shorts and sports top.
As for area we live in a 'nice' village on the edge of a west country city... it happens here.... it happened in a large market town where we used to live....
I have remembered countless times (as others have recounted here) throughout my life where all sorts of behaviours have caused so much discomfort. I used to work in a pub when I was at college... and that was rife.
Girls in school uniform being 'abused' in this way... (my DD has had this too)...
I think we've just put up with so much day-to-day rubbish for so long, but I have just really had enough of it. And hearing all of your stories makes my stomach turn, mainly with anger.
When you group this altogether it's horrendous.

[Oneearringlost]

I would not stop walking where you do with DD. Instead I would use this as an oppotunity to discuss this atrocious behaviour and model good responses to it, like filming them, and saying loudly " "Another one for the Facebook page", making it clear you are taking down their registration, and coming up with some suitably shaming rejoinders. Fingers down the throat gesture? Ignoring them is too passive, it needs a clear shaming statement or gesture, someone will be along with one soon, I'm sure, in the meantime, I'm thinking...

[Fgs1]

I left my house (looking a mess and not showing any flesh) and in the space of two minutes was whistled at by someone in a passing van...erm why?! What is it with van drivers?! Is it part of their job description to whistle at women? I think they do it to make each other laugh, make themselves feel more macho to their mates. I don't think they realise how horrible it is to receive catcalls/whistling etc. They just think it's funny. Maybe their jobs are so dull, they dare each other and egg each other on to brighten up their otherwise boring days. A bit like the class clowns at school but they never grew out of it. And why is it that running/jogging in particular receives so much attention from men? It's like they feel they either have to stare and make a comment. I wish I could be a man for a day to understand it, because they must be wired very very differently. I know not all men are like this, but it is always men who do it.

[Oneearringlost]

@msbehavin
Splendid post, I'm going to print it out and keep it to show my DD and DS
Thank you

[Onlinedilema]

My dd has said whenever she goes running men shout at her.
They are just wankers they do it because they can, the same as shouting racist comments. They do it because they can. If there was a consequence, such as losing your job, I’m very sure they would suddenly stop.

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

This is terrible. Don’t flame me...this has never happened to me in the UK but it has happened to me a lot where I used to live abroad. I am just wondering if cultures up and down the UK may vary a lot. I just can’t imagine it happening where I live but who knows.

[ancientgran]

@FrankButchersDickieBow

Or rape happens nearby, police blamed as men who would have paid a prostitute have a raped a young mother/schoolgirl/helpless old granny, newspapers outraged, councillors and MPs involved, crackdown ends

Anyone who thinks rape is to do with a man getting his end away, is thick.

That wasn't the point though, someone said the police weren't bothered about kerb crawlers, I was explaining why it is a difficult thing for the police to deal with. I have worked with police officers who really wanted to do something about it and due to public reaction to incidents like this they were forced to stop. The public might be thick, the local papers as well but if you have massive pressure against an operation that is already taking up a huge amount of time they tend to get their way.

[Fgs1]

@ATieLikeRichardGere. Yes, Turkey is one of those places. There are definitely cultures who see a woman showing flesh as fair game. It also seems to be much more prevalent among the white working classes to shout at women - the tradesmen, white van men etc, all part of their 'machoism' etc . This is my experience.

[cashoncollection]

Once you start to see it and notice it, you see that it’s everywhere, all the time. The scales fell from my eyes a few years ago and now I am so angry about it.

[AcornAutumn]

@littleburn

I'd also be very tempted to film it and take down number plates.

This is the best idea

They know it's wrong OP. It doesn't stop them doing it. They get a kick out of the intimidation.

[sjfjsnfkdhsbd]

Men do this to feel powerful. It has nothing to do with what you wear.

There was a project on street harassment in Egypt a few years ago. Many women reported starting to wear the veil and then niqab and so on, progressively adopting more "conservative" dress to cover up in a desperate attempt to get the harassment to stop.

It did not stop. If anything, they reported the harassment getting worse the more they covered up. They described men treating them as a challenge because they'd covered up.

Men were doing it because they got a thrill out of dominating women. They might have used different excuses, but ultimately it was about power.

The problem is men and the society that permits and excuses this behaviour, not what women wear.

[Fgs1]

@sjfjsnfkdhsbd

Men do this to feel powerful. It has nothing to do with what you wear.

There was a project on street harassment in Egypt a few years ago. Many women reported starting to wear the veil and then niqab and so on, progressively adopting more "conservative" dress to cover up in a desperate attempt to get the harassment to stop.

It did not stop. If anything, they reported the harassment getting worse the more they covered up. They described men treating them as a challenge because they'd covered up.

Men were doing it because they got a thrill out of dominating women. They might have used different excuses, but ultimately it was about power.

The problem is men and the society that permits and excuses this behaviour, not what women wear.

In my personal experience, if I wear something revealing e.g. shorts and a vest top I get much more looks/comments/harrassment than wearing a jumper and joggers. Of course, that sort of white van man/construction worker passes comment / wolf whistles regardless as they just do it for the 'fun'/making their mates laugh. But wearing shorts and a vest top will result in much more attention and why many teenage girls feel so self conscious about their bodies because they see how men react .

[SynchroSwimmer]

I would want to be proactive about it (I would feel better if I had some control of the situation)

I would take (even pretend to take) very obvious photos
Also have a notebook and make it obvious I was making detailed description/notes, we would look and point at them to leave them in no doubt.

Maybe invest in a headcam too?

(I have encountered some serious difficulties and I now very openly engineer it to photograph the culprits as they “walk into my shot” as I am “photographing my friend/companion”)

[Brefugee]

VMen shouldn't do it obviously but i personally would advise your daughter to cover up more when walking alongside a road. I know people say why should she etc but its a matter of protecting her. All you need is a thin long cardigan/kimono type of thing to put on when you walk near a road. I would say that would stop most of the harassment. Its not right but there are dangerous people about and what you wear does matter.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. People who thing and say this kind of drivel are on the problem side of the equation.

[Sadsiblingatsea]

The Not All Men crowd are doing my head in.
Women are being abused and killed but it’s all about the menz.

[Jumpers268]

Do you know what I hate. The men shouting "morning love" at you. And then when you don't respond they shout "oh give us a smile" "oh wow you're rude" or even worse. I once had a man shout "slut" at me when I was with my, then, 5 year old son. There was an advert I watched a while back where the woman goes out covered up (like covered up, covered up) as if she's the problem. It's the men that are the problem. You shouldn't be teaching your daughter to wear more clothes, you should teach your son not to be a misogynistic pig.

[Mydogmylife]

[quote picknmix1984]@Littlefluffyclouds13 I hope you're not a woman. Because if you are you're a pretty poor specimen!

My daughter has panic attacks. She has been out with friends multiple times where men have slowed down, shouted observe things. It's all contributed to her now suffering from agoraphobia. Some men ( and women) disgust me at the moment! [/quote]
I think you may have misread littlefluffyclouds comments - she is pointing out the hypocrisy of visits blaming ( ie the crop top comment) not indulging in it

[Lykke1000]

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/woman-selfies-street-harrassers-harrassment-catcalls-men-instagram-noa-jansma-a7983991.html

[Oneearringlost]

"Men shouldn't do it obviously but i personally would advise your daughter to cover up more when walking alongside a road. I know people say why should she etc but its a matter of protecting her. All you need is a thin long cardigan/kimono type of thing to put on when you walk near a road. I would say that would stop most of the harassment. Its not right but there are dangerous people about and what you wear does matter."

[HotPenguin]

I agree you should photograph the offenders, get together with other women and start a local FB group and post all the pictures on there.

I used to be frequently shouted at and abused when I went running in t-shirt and joggers, I was worried about switching to lycras as I thought it would get worse, but actually it seemed to stop when I switched to lycras. Could be coincidence but I wondered if I looked more "professional sportswoman" and less of a victim to be picked on? Not suggesting anyone should change what they wear in response to this, but I do wonder if part of the mentality is just the same as bullying, picking on those who look most vulnerable.

[quarentini]

Sorry I can't remember who asked what I do with the photos I take .
I put them on Facebook.. I ask if anyone has lost their son, husband. brother, father,or if it's a work vehicle employee.