Suddenly so angry - being shouted at and leered at just going for a walk with my DD

[slipperandtherose]

Suddenly so angry - being shouted at and leered at just going for a walk with my DD.
Just that.... My DD is 16, during the last year we have started walking together. One of our walks is along a fairly busy road in the evening. Every walk, cars will go by and beep, sometimes men shout out.... even had middle aged men turn their interior light on and drive past slowly.
It's really intimidating and has made us physIcally jump at times.
This is putting my daughter off going for walks on her own.
I realised that women and girls have been putting up with this level of intimidation since we became teenagers. We've had to put up with this...
Also I have had really arrogant reactions from all ages of men in cars, where they make a point of swearing / slowing up / shouting ... when they feel you haven't let them through etc... Would they have had this reaction if I was a man? Probably not...
There is low level misogyny just in the most normal everyday activities, and it's suddenly making me really cross, probably because I can see how it affects my DD.
AIBU to suggest that there should be some sort of addition to PSHE teachings in schools that includes the awareness of what is not okay in a civilised society, because there are still too many young men that don't seem to know that this is wrong?

[Hoppinggreen]

@Hoppinggreen

We had to spend a fortune on a treadmill for DD 16 as she couldn’t go for a run without being leered at.
It’s fucking disgusting

And she used to run in leggings and a baggy tshirt, not that she should have to

[GeorgiaGirl52]

This has always happened. Before the days of cell phone cameras my mother and aunt were harassed as they walked to school. Mother carried a bag of eggs and if anyone pulled up beside them and slowed down she egged their windshield. Didn't take long for word to get out and cars moved past them pretty fast!

[VestaTilley]

YANBU. I’m sorry you’re both enduring this; it’s despicable. Start shouting back at those men.

Street harassment of women and girls should be illegal. It’s misogyny and it’s unacceptable.

We should all be writing to our MPs asking for them to make it illegal.

[msbehavin]

It is disgusting. It is everywhere. And yet nothing is done because society deems it acceptable for women to be treated as second class citizens.

Men don't acknowledge how unacceptable their behaviour is. Men don't hold each other accountable in any way for their behaviour towards women. In fact, they largely actively encourage one another in it. Why? Because there's no backlash. There's no punishment. There's no disapproval. It's just boys being boys. Lads being lads. Men have their needs. They just can't help themselves!

In addition, many women downplay, excuse and enable their behaviour (case in point - #notallmen movement). We are so conditioned to please men and to seek approval from them, that even when they abuse us, we seek to excuse them. It's so deeply depressing.

How has this happened? Well, women are depicted as sexual objects in all of our cultural outputs. From a very young age, everywhere we look, women's lives are shown to have value in proportion to how they are viewed by men.

In the vast majority of depictions of women in fiction, their storyline revolves around them seeking a male partner, seeking to hold on to a male partner, or seeking to marry a male partner. The vast majority of female conversations in fiction will be about men. The ultimate success, in society, for a woman, as depicted in all of our cultural output, is having her existence validated by having a man agree to marry her. If you don't know much about this, research the Bechdel test, which lays it all bare. Think about the shows you watch or books you read - even when a female character has a career or interest, what is the driving force behind the storyline? 99% of the time, it'll be her search for a man.

Look at the depictions of men in fiction. They're out saving the world, climbing the career ladder, and pursuing their dreams. Their romantic lives are on the periphery of their existence, and they are the ones making all the choices. Even if they treat women badly, often we are encouraged to sympathise with and excuse their behaviour. One of the most popular books taught in schools is Of Mice and Men, a book about a man with special needs who assaults and then murders a woman, who no one grieves for, because she was wearing a sexy dress and was asking for it. The tears at the end of the book are for the man who killed her.

As long as our society continues to produce cultural output across all types of media - music, film, TV, literature, video games, etc - where men are depicted as being active and women as passive, and where men have power over women through women's dependence on them for the meaning of their existence, we will continue to live in a world where men think they can treat women like animals.

These sexist attitudes are so insidious that many of us don't even notice we hold them. You don't have to be someone who shouts sexist abuse at women to be a misogynist. Any woman who has allowed herself to internalise the patriarchy to the point where getting a ring on her finger is the main driving force of her life needs to take a good look in the mirror, because she is part of the problem. Any man who says he can't wait to walk his daughter down the aisle, treating it as the expected pinnacle of her achievements as a woman, needs to take a good look in the mirror, because he is part of the problem. Any attitude that places a woman's happiness, success or achievements as being dependent on her relationship to a man perpetuates the belief that men have the right to treat women as they wish because women need men and men don't need women.

More people need to question and more people need to adapt their behaviour if anything is going to change. Passive anger isn't enough.

[Magicpaintbrush]

I do wonder if this problem is worse in some areas than others? I haven't seen behaviour like this in my local area (North Kent), though I'm sure it must happen and I just haven't witnessed it, but the reports I read about on here and in the news are so bad and so blatant that it just makes me wonder if this misogynistic culture has particularly bad hot spots around the country. It shouldn't be happening anywhere ever, but clearly it is a really widespread issue. Very depressing.

[Kenshi]

@Magicpaintbrush

I do wonder if this problem is worse in some areas than others? I haven't seen behaviour like this in my local area (North Kent), though I'm sure it must happen and I just haven't witnessed it, but the reports I read about on here and in the news are so bad and so blatant that it just makes me wonder if this misogynistic culture has particularly bad hot spots around the country. It shouldn't be happening anywhere ever, but clearly it is a really widespread issue. Very depressing.

I agree it is hugely depressing. I believe it tends to be more common in areas where there is more poverty as there are a lot more disenfranchised men who feel inadequate and also have more time on their hands so end up heckling females of all ages. Younger ones are targeted more not just due to sexual reasons, but because they are more vulnerable. It's basically bullying, they mouth off because it makes them feel something in their dull lives. It's actually very sad to be honest.

[crashbandicootwarped]

I'd be tempted to take pictures of their number plates or video it and post on a local Facebook group.
Name and Shane the perverts

[DdraigGoch]

Sadly I'd say that a bodycam looks like the solution. Once you've got footage, name and shame online.

Either that or carry some eggs like a PP's mother used to.

[Staysexyanddontgetmurdered]

I'm really sorry you are having to deal with this, and I'm sorry this is the world our daughters are having to grow up in. We need to keep teaching our sons how to behave in order to not intimidate women and hope that the next generation are better.
For those saying it has ANYTHING to do with what a woman wears, you are being ridiculous. I have been leered and shouted at my whole life wearing a school uniform, little dresses when out clubbing, big winter coats and even once when holding hands with my husband. IT. DOESN'T. MAKE . ANY DIFFERENCE. Now I have children myself and I still get abuse in the street, except I get told things like 'smile!' And once, 'you should be ashamed of yourself ' (for taking my children out of the car in the rain walking to our house).
These kind of men don't care who you are or what you look like, they just want to intimidate.

[msbehavin]

@Magicpaintbrush

I do wonder if this problem is worse in some areas than others? I haven't seen behaviour like this in my local area (North Kent), though I'm sure it must happen and I just haven't witnessed it, but the reports I read about on here and in the news are so bad and so blatant that it just makes me wonder if this misogynistic culture has particularly bad hot spots around the country. It shouldn't be happening anywhere ever, but clearly it is a really widespread issue. Very depressing.

It's the same everywhere. Just because you haven't seen it, it's still happening.

It's nothing to do with social status, race, etc. Men from all backgrounds do it, all the time, everywhere.

My first experience was being groped on my walk to school at the age of 12, by another 12 year old boy. In a very nice middle class London suburb.

Followed by a man exposing himself to me while I walked the family dog at the age of 13, in broad daylight, down our quiet residential street in said middle class London suburb.

The constant catcalling from men in vans while still in school uniform, just walking home from school.

The construction workers lined up at the side of the road, leering and making lewd comments designed to intimidate as I walk past in my smart work clothes.

The suited bankers who have touched me, groped me, followed me and harrassed me on the tube, in bars, clubs, restaurants.

The blokes on their way home from the pub/football who follow and shout abuse after me for several metres as I try to escape them.

The passing car drivers, cyclists, runners - of all ages, all races, all classes, all professions - who shout sexual comments as I am just walking along, minding my own business.

The constant staring and commenting and expectation that I should be flattered by male attention and want to engage with it wherever I am, whatever I'm doing.

It's even happened to me in my own classroom, in front of my teenage students, when a male external speaker said in front of my whole class, I'm surprised you lot can get any learning done with a teacher as hot as this.

It's so important that as women we don't try and minimise this by suggesting some areas or some types of men are worse than others. That's simply not true.

Imagine if men had to experience this kind of harassment and intimidation on a daily basis? I think then sexism would suddenly start to be taken very seriously.

[Nonmaquillee]

@Macncheeseballs

Teenagers wearing crop tops will always draw attention, it may not be right but that ain't gonna change. People, both men and women, look at flesh, subconsciously or overtly

Jesus Christ. Who said anything about what teenagers wear??? What the hell has this got to do with the need for men to behave respectfully towards women??

[slipperandtherose]

Thanks everyone for sharing and commenting. It has made me more angry on all our behalfs! I'll keep you posted!

[cleanasawhistle]

I witnessed a ex neighbour of mine learing at a teenager walking past his car ....while his own young daughter was sitting next to him .

Wonder what he is saying to his daughters now if they tell him about this sort of haressment.

[FrankButchersDickieBow]

Or rape happens nearby, police blamed as men who would have paid a prostitute have a raped a young mother/schoolgirl/helpless old granny, newspapers outraged, councillors and MPs involved, crackdown ends

Anyone who thinks rape is to do with a man getting his end away, is thick.

[SpookieDookie]

My daughter and I walked to her school in the school day and we were shouted at by refuse collectors in the road. I also saw them shouting at girls in school uniform waiting out side the school. I phoned up the council and reported them. They don’t do it any more. The local university has a zero tolerance policy and workmen there who are caught catcalling get sacked and students get an warning on their record. It should be the same penalty as for racism in my opinion. It’s so disgusting especially when it’s aimed at girls in school uniform.

[CuthbertDibbleandGrubb]

I am sure if there was the will a law could be drawn up that made it illegal to cat call, at least at those under 18, made a motoring offence so persistent offenders could face a driving ban. Valid reasons such as to stop someone being run over could easily be defined.

Statues have more protection under the plans of this government.

[LaBellina]

I agree with pp re taking down number plates and report them to the police. If I were a police officer I would happily pay them a visit to and explain preferably in front of their wife that this kind of behavior is harassment.

Off topic but a creepy old guy from my old neighborhood made a nasty sexist comment to me and I reported him to the police who came over and told him off in front of his wife. I still laugh about this when I think about how humiliating that must have been for the creepy old bastard.

[Kenshi]

@Oneweekleft

Men shouldn't do it obviously but i personally would advise your daughter to cover up more when walking alongside a road. I know people say why should she etc but its a matter of protecting her. All you need is a thin long cardigan/kimono type of thing to put on when you walk near a road. I would say that would stop most of the harassment. Its not right but there are dangerous people about and what you wear does matter.

In a civilised society women should be able to walk down a street wearing their everyday clothes without having to put on extra items of clothing which they may not want to wear to avoid having obscene remarks hurled at them from all angles. And anyway it doesn't work does it, if every female wandered about in a kimono you can guarantee there'd still be verbal abuse richocheting around every street up and down the country. It's not on.

[msbehavin]

@Oneweekleft

Men shouldn't do it obviously but i personally would advise your daughter to cover up more when walking alongside a road. I know people say why should she etc but its a matter of protecting her. All you need is a thin long cardigan/kimono type of thing to put on when you walk near a road. I would say that would stop most of the harassment. Its not right but there are dangerous people about and what you wear does matter.

@oneweekleft Why should the OP's daughter have to change what she wears to try and stop men from behaving in this way? I can't believe there are women out there who are still trotting out this nonsense. This is all part of the culture of victim blaming that excuses male behaviour and puts the onus on women to alter their lifestyles and routines to reduce the way their lives are impacted by unwanted male attention, harassment and abuse. Women don't need to change anything about what they do. It's men who need to change.

And FYI, what you wear makes no difference. Putting on a thin long cardigan isn't going to stop a bloke from leering at you. I can't believe such naivety exists in a grown woman!

[Magicpaintbrush]

msbehavin I was NOT minimising anything, don't you dare even suggest that. Read my post properly, I actually said "I'm sure it must happen and I just haven't witnessed it". You've completely misinterpreted what I meant. I would never minimise any kind of misogyny, I detest it and abhor it, I was trying to get a feel for the situation, nothing more. But actually how would you even know if this issue is at exactly the same levels in every area of the country, how?Because in order to know that you would have had to have personal experience of living or working everywhere, or at least have your finger on the pulse of what is going on in every town across the country, so it's a bit of an empty statement isn't it.

[Robin233]

I've not witnessed this either....
When my beautiful daughter hit 16 men (and women) would look at her.
At first I didn't notice.
There was not harassment. Maybe become we're fairly tall ( and nobody messes with my daughter ).
I live in a fairly decent sized town so often out for walks.
Daughter lives in a major city.
She's had 3 brothers but we've never had this can of trouble must be very scary.

[msbehavin]

@Magicpaintbrush With respect, please could you not speak to me like I'm a child - 'don't you dare' - and please could you not try and undermine me by suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't understand the need to be so personal and aggressive - I didn't say anything whatsoever in my post that was aggressive or disrespectful to you. We're women working towards the same aim of exposing women's experiences of male harassment. Please let's not start infighting. It gets us nowhere.

I fully appreciated and respected your point that you felt you hadn't seen anything in your local area but were sure it still existed. I used your post as a sort of jumping off point to explore the idea raised not only by you, but by others on this thread too, that perhaps misogyny is worse in particular areas or amongst particular social classes. In my experience, that's not true, and when I spoke of minimising it, I meant it as a general comment in terms of us ensuring we don't enable ourselves or others to consider misogyny as an isolated issue relevant to specific areas or social groups. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you to make it clearer that I wasn't referring to you specifically. I really did have no intention of my post acting as a critique of you and I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused.

To answer your questions, my academic specialism is in Women's Studies. I work actively with a number of women's political and community organisations across the UK. I carry out UK-wide research into sexual harassment in schools and am involved in numerous campaigns about young women's experiences of sexual harassment. As such, I like to think I have a pretty good understanding of women's experiences in the UK beyond my own. I have lived all over the UK and in other countries and my experience of sexual harassment - and the stories of sexual harassment by the people I've met and whose experiences I've researched in these places - has been no different wherever I've been. I wish that were the case. I wish these were isolated incidents, but sadly they're not. Misogyny is a global epidemic. Imagine if we'd put the same amount of resources into fighting it as we have coronavirus. What a better world we'd be living in.

[belinda789]

@msbehavin
I agree with everything you say in your post but your sentence at the end “men have the right to treat women as they wish because women need men and men don't need women” might cause some on here to disagree.
Men see females as madly attractive so do need women (for sex). And because girls and women seem to spend most of their waking lives making themselves “attractive”, the next generation of the human race is guaranteed. It is nature. However we are now supposed to be civilised and have standards of decency and laws to ensure civilised behaviour. Men and boys should be reminded of this fact and the fact that in the year 2021 they are not cave men.