Destroying the Planet? I'm sure AIBU and I don't care

[Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong]

Inspired by another thread.

Live as a couple. Have no children and one 6 year old car. Have a 4 bed house which we love. Modest holidays (pre-covid would go abroad twice a year). We try not to be wasteful and recycle.

But please stop telling me we are destroying the planet! Just because we eat red meat and like nice clothes. I'm fed up of people coming out with the "go vegetarian / go vegan" lines. Just go away.

I think not having children trumps most people who are eco-warriors (with children) so on a comparison basis I think we would score quite well re our environmental credentials.

Apart from that, I'm not really bothered by environmental issues as there is naff all I can do to influence the behaviours of other people and especially big powerful conglomerates and governments. We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us. I also accept that the Earth has changed a lot in its very long history and inevitably will keep on changing. If the ultimate result is that it changes to become completely hostile for supporting human life, well, so be it. But hey that's probably thousands and thousands of years off and mumsnet will be a dim and distant memory by then.

Ugh I know what you mean OP. I am an earth ruining person because I've had two children both of whom used disposable nappies and over the years many thousands of wipes. I also love antibacterial wipes and they'll be prised out of my cold dead hands. We also have two diesel cars, and eat meat, dairy etc. My washing machine and tumble driers are used a lot!

We do our bit in other ways. We recycle almost everything. We have milk delivered in glass bottles which get returned. We rarely fly. We walk where we can. I try to use as little plastic as possible, don't use cling film etc. We reuse children's clothes.

I try to do bits little by little but I agree. Individuals make not even a smidge of difference compared to flying, or the pollution that companies produce. Once something is done about that, something proper, I might feel more inclined to do more!

Ah tulip yes my tumble dryer is used for every load of washing - cannot bear damp garments draped over radiators and around the house. Also I think any parents are entitled to choose without judgement whether to use disposable or recyclable nappies. I may not be a parent myself but I don't underestimate how much work is involved in nurturing the next generation!

And despite what people say about children being the biggest environmental foot print, I fully support and enjoy good people's wish to have them and feel very sad when someone says "oh I can't have children because of my concerns about the environment" - for goodness sake, don't be so wet! Also we need young children to keep this world going - to replace the workforce and to service my pension.

Are they really nice clothes? About 90% plus of the UK have no idea what nice clothes are.

I think the point is that it's not thousands of years off before the tipping point

It's about ten years to prevent millions of deaths

You're right that adding to the planet is one of the worst things you can do

I am huge on environmental issues, but do think those who are not having children are absolutely doing more than those who have (& I say this as a mother to one)
Im mostly responding because I am interested to see the replies.

I've seen seaspirocy (apologies for spelling) advertised on netflix and I would like to watch, but as someone who feel low level anxiety now about environmental issues, I don't think i can take yet another "we are all doomed" documentary.

I already litterpick, walk instead of driving as much as possible, plant and garden, try and wear my clothes as much as possible before washing, source things 2nd hand, share food on apps like Olio etc.

My headspace is already full of "do I need this, am I making ethical choices, can I fix this, I cant afford organic produce today"

And that's just a journey to the shops, or walking to the shops!

YANBU, individuals have been campaigning about this for decades, but overall, industry has done fuck all other than virtue signal. And its industry making the major choices and having the most impact.
Do what you can, enjoy life, and don't feel guilty.

This stands out for me " We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us."

I think we ALL need to play a part for change to happen, from the biggest polluter to smallest consumer. And that may mean some small inconvenience.

Yes well done for not having children- was that through environmental concern or for some other reason?

@CuthbertDibbleandGrubb

Are they really nice clothes? About 90% plus of the UK have no idea what nice clothes are.

Such a sassy reply so early on

How incredibly depressing.

@CuthbertDibbleandGrubb

Are they really nice clothes? About 90% plus of the UK have no idea what nice clothes are.

Yes I think they are or I would not buy or make them!

@ragtimeloves

How incredibly depressing.

I agree, all this talk about destroying the planet is incredibly depressing and is going nowhere. So can we get back to enjoying our lives, eating red meat, having children, using tumble dryers, going on holiday occasionally, without some eco goody-goody lecturing us on being environmentally friendly?

We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us.

Yabu.

I know what you mean. I have a friend whose constantly going on about her goals to reduce her carbon footprint. Last year it included cutting down on flying. She spent the previous years doing multiple flights per year including many long haul trips. So she had her fun, used so much carbon flying that she’ll never be able to make up, and is now being all preachy about how people shouldn’t do too many flights.

A bit like those who have had three plus children now going on about how people shouldn’t have more than one child. Easy to say when you’ve had your time.

@rattymcratrat

This stands out for me " We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us."

I think we ALL need to play a part for change to happen, from the biggest polluter to smallest consumer. And that may mean some small inconvenience.

Yes well done for not having children- was that through environmental concern or for some other reason?

Absolutely, we all like convenience don't we?

And as for not having children, no not for environmental concerns don't be daft

But as a by-product of not having children, that trumps most of everyone's endeavours to be environmentally aware.

So can we get back to enjoying

But if you've already made the connection between all those things and environmental damage how are you going to unconnect them in your head so you can get back to enjoying them?

It's a bit like knowing the sugar content of your favourite food. It's harder to enjoy them regularly without telling yourself 'I shouldn't really'.

At least you have recognised they are contributing factors, I respect you for that.

@AppleJane

So can we get back to enjoying

But if you've already made the connection between all those things and environmental damage how are you going to unconnect them in your head so you can get back to enjoying them?

It's a bit like knowing the sugar content of your favourite food. It's harder to enjoy them regularly without telling yourself 'I shouldn't really'.

At least you have recognised they are contributing factors, I respect you for that.

Oh Apple Jane, I have a very big sweet tooth. Of course I know the sugar content of all my favourite foods (ice cream in case you were wondering). Doesn't stop me eating it on a daily basis and enjoying it though!

I work in climate, and you are right - not having children is the #1 thing you can do statistically in terms of reducing your climate impact, by orders of magnitude. Then not flying (although obviously this one depends on how much you would have flown otherwise - someone who flies every week long haul for work obviously has a much bigger impact than someone who goes on one flight every two years to the south of France). Then not having a car. Then using green electricity (everyone should do this IMO, it's now entirely cost competitive so there's no real excuse). Then going vegan/vegetarian, then using a hybrid car, then recycling, then not using a tumble dryer. (Source: Institute of Physics). There's a lot of misinformation about this - people typically massively overstate the impact of recycling and tumble drying if you ask them what they think the biggest impact changes are.

Having said that, I really don't appreciate 'green shaming' - despite working in climate, I am not vegetarian, I fly, and I am pregnant. I like to think my career means my positive impact will be multiplied, but that doesn't mean I or anyone else should be shamed about their decisions. I also think people should focus on the easy wins e.g. changing your electricity provider is so much easier than suddenly becoming vegan, so there should be a lot more messaging around doing that.

Yes, I know a couple who is very holier than thou about what they are doing to save the envirinment and like to preach about not flying, eating more veggie meals, certain types of clothing. But our carbon footprint is far lower than theirs - we have no kids, an electric car and solar panels.

But all of our choices were made for other reasons, so I would never dream about preaching to others.

YABU. I'm doing a degree in environmental studies and it's a real eye-opener - we shouldn't just be concerned about whether the planet can sustain us, we should care about the other inhabitants too. Animals and ecosystems are destroyed every day, and the impacts of environmental damage disproportionately affect poorer countries that already struggle with poverty and lack of services. I don't preach about doing the right thing and I'm certainly not an eco warrior but it does concern me that some people literally don't give a shit. Yes the big corporations play a huge part in emissions/pollution but the whole system of capitalism, which we support by buying nice cars and clothes and furniture without caring what's been destroyed in the process, is completely unsustainable. Seeing ourselves as separate from nature is harmful, we are part of it and I feel with our right to use its resources comes a responsibility to do it in the least harmful way possible. It might not affect you but it will definitely affect your children/their children.

@notalwaysalondoner

I work in climate, and you are right - not having children is the #1 thing you can do statistically in terms of reducing your climate impact, by orders of magnitude. Then not flying (although obviously this one depends on how much you would have flown otherwise - someone who flies every week long haul for work obviously has a much bigger impact than someone who goes on one flight every two years to the south of France). Then not having a car. Then using green electricity (everyone should do this IMO, it's now entirely cost competitive so there's no real excuse). Then going vegan/vegetarian, then using a hybrid car, then recycling, then not using a tumble dryer. (Source: Institute of Physics). There's a lot of misinformation about this - people typically massively overstate the impact of recycling and tumble drying if you ask them what they think the biggest impact changes are.

Having said that, I really don't appreciate 'green shaming' - despite working in climate, I am not vegetarian, I fly, and I am pregnant. I like to think my career means my positive impact will be multiplied, but that doesn't mean I or anyone else should be shamed about their decisions. I also think people should focus on the easy wins e.g. changing your electricity provider is so much easier than suddenly becoming vegan, so there should be a lot more messaging around doing that.

I don't like 'green shaming' either, so I don't welcome lectures on how to save the environment.

I did try a green energy supplier once and their service was absolutely dreadful. I ended up owing a lot of money because despite asking them to, they would not increase my monthly direct debits so all my budgeting went out the window. I could not get through to a person (perhaps they were far too green to, you know, employ staff?) and I was so hacked off. I've now gone back to a mainstream provider as the service and website is so much more customer-friendly.

I think after all these years and all these campaigns my veg should not be coming in non recyclable packaging my fruit should be free who the fuck needs those nets? Its not me why thirty plus years after saying they are a problem are they STILL on my oranges this was known when I was at school im forty fucking six years old and we have only "just" done "something" about plastic bags double wrapped cucumber? Why? Where is the need? Wash it its fucking dirty under the wrapping anyway

Its supermarkets and food supply that is an issue but as we all need to eat nothing gets done we just accept it

And eco cars cause a hell of a lot of damage while they are being created

Obviously Yabu. What is the point of this thread? Do you just want people to say don’t worry OP, it’s fine eat steak for every meal and set fire to a heap of coal in your garden because BP won’t reduce their emissions? Grow up.

We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us.

This.

Very few of us are making genuine sacrifices.

Turning this around will take much more than most are prepared to give.