Destroying the Planet? I'm sure AIBU and I don't care

[Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong]

Inspired by another thread.

Live as a couple. Have no children and one 6 year old car. Have a 4 bed house which we love. Modest holidays (pre-covid would go abroad twice a year). We try not to be wasteful and recycle.

But please stop telling me we are destroying the planet! Just because we eat red meat and like nice clothes. I'm fed up of people coming out with the "go vegetarian / go vegan" lines. Just go away.

I think not having children trumps most people who are eco-warriors (with children) so on a comparison basis I think we would score quite well re our environmental credentials.

Apart from that, I'm not really bothered by environmental issues as there is naff all I can do to influence the behaviours of other people and especially big powerful conglomerates and governments. We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us. I also accept that the Earth has changed a lot in its very long history and inevitably will keep on changing. If the ultimate result is that it changes to become completely hostile for supporting human life, well, so be it. But hey that's probably thousands and thousands of years off and mumsnet will be a dim and distant memory by then.

@TheKeatingFive

But what I cannot tolerate is people who have children lecturing anyone on their lifestyle choices whilst on the eco hobby horse. And those people, once they start, instantly lose all credibility as far as I'm concerned.

This is just more of the same, demanding people are perfect themselves before they have a right to talk about what can be done about climate change.

It’s a way of shutting down conversation, because we raise the bar for ‘credibility’ so high that no one clears it. Virtually no one is living the kind of life we all need to to tackle this.

But a lot of us are tackling this, in our own quiet way, and do not deserve to be lectured and hounded by the goodlier amongst us and know-it-all-hypocritical-celebrities

Just give me a break from doom and gloom and this planet is going to die. Honestly it's not going to expire any time soon and by then the likes of Branson, Bezos and Elon Musk will have worked out how to transport colonies to other planets so the human race can continue.

t’s a way of shutting down conversation, because we raise the bar for ‘credibility’ so high that no one clears it. Virtually no one is living the kind of life we all need to to tackle this.

Exactly. If you've already had children by the time you fully understand the climate crisis are these people saying they should dispose of their children to be allowed an opinion? It's all getting silly now. It's the same argument for continuing bad practices due to 'tradition'. We have to break the cycle.

t’s a way of shutting down conversation, because we raise the bar for ‘credibility’ so high that no one clears it. Virtually no one is living the kind of life we all need to to tackle this.

Good. If that stops the all the lectures that's fine by me. Nothing to stop you having an opinion about it though, but maybe think first how you articulate that to someone else so they don't feel got at for their perfectly reasonable lifestyle choices?

But a lot of us are tackling this, in our own quiet way, and do not deserve to be lectured and hounded by the goodlier amongst us

I expect you’re making small changes that don’t require too much sacrifice, just like virtually everybody else.

My point is that shouldn’t mean you get to shut down debate, because pretty much no one will meet the high standards of ‘credibility’ you’ve decided people need to talk about it.

All I’m looking for is an open and honest conversation about. What it would take? Are we prepared to do it? Perhaps the conclusion is that no we aren’t, but I think it would be better to face that fact honestly rather than drift into like we seem to be doing.

All I’m looking for is an open and honest conversation about. What it would take?

With some it will be impossible because they misinterpret debate for lecturing. I know many people who are quite happy for doctors to prescribe them damaging medication but suggest they make small changes to their eating habits and they're aghast!

With some it will be impossible because they misinterpret debate for lecturing.

Agreed

@Andante57

I’ve sometimes wondered at the amount of plastic in blister packs of pills which are obviously single use. When I was a child pills came in cardboard boxes or bottles. Would it be impossible to have some sort of refillable or recyclable bottles or boxes?

Superdrug are working with a company and will soon have recycle points in their stores for blister packs. It’s part of the “Little packs, Big Impact” scheme.

Depends on whether you accept we're heading for an environmental catastrophe or not. If you do, and don't care that's pretty selfish. If you don't, that's probably a question over lack of knowledge.
To be honest I was less worried about the environment when I didn't have children. For me having kids has made me less selfish. I'm in no way an eco preacher but I do my bit and certainly wouldn't say I don't care about destroying the planet.

@Andante57

I’ve sometimes wondered at the amount of plastic in blister packs of pills which are obviously single use. When I was a child pills came in cardboard boxes or bottles. Would it be impossible to have some sort of refillable or recyclable bottles or boxes?

I think superdrug was trying to recycle them. I saw an article saying something about recycling blister packs but cant remember what it said.

Eh? So are you saying that because of my post, I'm not allowed to be offended by people discarding rubbish? I've never heard of it being called "shaming" when you dare to criticise people dropping litter - I thought this was just unreasonable behaviour, end of.

I take care not to leave rubbish around and I also pick up other people's litter. I think this is a reasonable and thoughtful thing to do, incumbent on anyone who considers them self to be a responsible human being. And it's something we can do without whinging about the end of the planet.

Ah I see. So you're allowed to moan about people dropping rubbish because you think it's unreasonable and that's totally fine and not shaming, but other people who moan about people destroying the planet are climate shamers and should shut up.

Got it.

Well, most individuals who 'preach' at others about climate change are massive hypocrites. It's the companies they should be preaching to if they want wide ranging change.

@TeacupDrama

People always tend to concentrate their green crudentials on the things they find easiest so it is easy shopping little and often without a car if you live in the city with 3 supermarkets the butchers bakers and grocers all within 10 minute walk so they use these to justify a flying holiday and replacing decor and fashion frequently and think they are doing better than the rural dweller that has a car and drives 20 miles to the supermarket and eats meat but they justify it by the fact they use and repair everything until worn out and grow own veggies and have hens.

Many talk about recycling but lots of stuff in recycling is not actually worn out or unusable it's just old fashioned or the personnow hasa newer version or it needs a small repair or something,the mantra is actually reduce, reuse or repair then only recycle afterwards but from what I see the "reduce" of consumption and avoidance of buying the unnecessary and the reuse or repair of items doesn't get a look in often it's just straight to recycle. How many people actually keep their smart phones 5 years or more but instead kid themselves it needs replacing because the programmes take nanoseconds longer to load, fast fashion is twice as polluting as all the flying and shipping in the world per year at pre pandemic levels of transport. Most clothing is recycled long long before it is worn out

Ultimately buying less in the first place is way better than even immaculate recycling
L

Definitely agree with this, best to reduce and reuse where possible.

Largely agree with you OP. I remember climate change and doom and gloom that was taught in primary schools back in the 80s. It genuinely gave me nightmares for a while and made me scared to do anything, as essentially the message I took away from it was that by merely existing I'm contributing towards the demise of the planet.

I notice none of the advice has changed in all those years. Essentially 100 large companies are still responsible for 70% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. Of course on an individual level we can reuse, consume less, recycle. The first two are fine and whilst I do recycle I do question it's efficacy in actually significantly reducing carbon emissions due to the energy required for the process. Also, how much of it is actually still being sent to landfill/exported to China/dumped in the oceans is anyone's guess. It does feel like these are exercises we do to make ourselves feel better rather than creating real change. For these reasons I admit I largely tune out when someone tries to tell me what I should be doing.

My dream is to live out in the country, with a nice big wildlife garden and to grow my own fruit and veg. Of course to do that I need money, so whilst I may not buy lots of unecessary items myself, I'm still relying on others to buy from my business.

My dream is to live out in the country, with a nice big wildlife garden and to grow my own fruit and veg. Of course to do that I need money, so whilst I may not buy lots of unecessary items myself, I'm still relying on others to buy from my business.

I do like to shop, but I know that most of the things I buy (apart from food, household goods etc) I could technically do without (and save the planet, yay!) But what about all those people in business who rely on others to buy discretionary items? Whilst I may not be saving the planet by purchasing Yet Another Thing, at least I hope I'm keeping someone in a job! So which is it, people? Save the planet or save livelihoods - seems we can't have both without one to the detriment of the other.

*Ah I see. So you're allowed to moan about people dropping rubbish because you think it's unreasonable and that's totally fine and not shaming, but other people who moan about people destroying the planet are climate shamers and should shut up.

Got it.*

Yes, well done, I think you've worked it out.

@Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong

My dream is to live out in the country, with a nice big wildlife garden and to grow my own fruit and veg. Of course to do that I need money, so whilst I may not buy lots of unecessary items myself, I'm still relying on others to buy from my business.

I do like to shop, but I know that most of the things I buy (apart from food, household goods etc) I could technically do without (and save the planet, yay!) But what about all those people in business who rely on others to buy discretionary items? Whilst I may not be saving the planet by purchasing Yet Another Thing, at least I hope I'm keeping someone in a job! So which is it, people? Save the planet or save livelihoods - seems we can't have both without one to the detriment of the other.

Quite. The issues are not as straightforward as they may seem and there is no perfect solution. The further we advance as a civilisation, the harder it becomes to live sustainably and that's not really the fault of people who are alive today. Yes, I could quite happily not upgrade my phone and just use the one I have until it breaks. However, it would not my place to dictate to someone who enjoys the benefits of modern tech in their life that they must not get a new phone each year. Similarly, if I do grow a large percentage of my own food in the future, I'm still likely to increase my water consumption from what it is now. Yes I can install rainwater irrigation systems, but if there's a drought I'll still potentially need to supplement with tap water at some point.

Ultimately it is down to the World's Governments to change how the biggest companies operate, but they're clearly not prepared to do that: they enjoy having money and power which is understandable. They prefer to skirt around the issue and move the focus back onto the behaviour of individuals, saying we didn't recyle enough, etc.

We chose not to have children because of overpopulation and, in our view, a pretty shit world (only going to get worse) so obviously pretty stupid in your view.

We are also vegetarian and rarely fly. I think we have flown 6 times in 40 years and all short flights. We recycle as much as we can and hardly ever buy new - clothes, furniture, books etc.

We could say we are not going to bother as we have no children to worry about but that would be selfish.

You thinking nothing is going to happen for thousands and thousands of years is really stupid. The weather is changing already. It's not just climate change is it? Also rising sea levels, likely food and water shortages. Great future to look forward to

It is such a shame that discussions like these always seem to snag on the hurdle of hypocrisy and accusations of hypocrisy being used to shut down conversation. The frame of hypocrisy brings nothing constructive to the table.
We are all flawed, this is a given. And, as OP suggests, we are all (mostly) trying, in our own way, to do what we can. Some more than others. Some with more zeal and fervour than others. All good. But please, let's not shut each other up. Why does anyone need 'credibility', when it is the sum of their actions that will count at the end of the day? Personally, I welcome anyone talking up their personal efforts at reducing their environmental impact, whatever their other perceived shortcomings. I also think it is great when people encourage each other to make better decisions; all of my decisions, as far as reducing my environmental impact is concerned, have come about as a result of me having been influenced or persuaded by someone talking to me or something I have read or watched that someone put effort into researching and distributing.
I also see no problem with people who are parents who become concerned for the environment after becoming parents. After all, it would be strange if they didn't. It is entirely possible to "wake up" to issues which previously were of no concern to one as a result of new experiences. To call parents who voice a concern for the planet, or who encourage others to make positive, sustainable environmental decisions "hypocrites lacking in credibility" seems a missed opportunity to recognise the efforts we all make on a personal level.

It is such a shame that discussions like these always seem to snag on the hurdle of hypocrisy and accusations of hypocrisy being used to shut down conversation. The frame of hypocrisy brings nothing constructive to the table.

^This 100%.

@YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators

It is such a shame that discussions like these always seem to snag on the hurdle of hypocrisy and accusations of hypocrisy being used to shut down conversation. The frame of hypocrisy brings nothing constructive to the table. We are all flawed, this is a given. And, as OP suggests, we are all (mostly) trying, in our own way, to do what we can. Some more than others. Some with more zeal and fervour than others. All good. But please, let's not shut each other up. Why does anyone need 'credibility', when it is the sum of their actions that will count at the end of the day? Personally, I welcome anyone talking up their personal efforts at reducing their environmental impact, whatever their other perceived shortcomings. I also think it is great when people encourage each other to make better decisions; all of my decisions, as far as reducing my environmental impact is concerned, have come about as a result of me having been influenced or persuaded by someone talking to me or something I have read or watched that someone put effort into researching and distributing. I also see no problem with people who are parents who become concerned for the environment after becoming parents. After all, it would be strange if they didn't. It is entirely possible to "wake up" to issues which previously were of no concern to one as a result of new experiences. To call parents who voice a concern for the planet, or who encourage others to make positive, sustainable environmental decisions "hypocrites lacking in credibility" seems a missed opportunity to recognise the efforts we all make on a personal level.

The OP has clearly considered their environmental impact and is already doing some pretty key things to minimise their personal carbon footprint. People are just focussing on the title of the post and getting angry, rather than reading what's written and is factually correct. If they were entirely ignorant of issues such as recycling, car pollution, diet, overpopulation (which have been well documented for at least the past 40 years) then fair play to the person trying to 'educate' them. It's a case of knowing your audience and also allowing people to have some autonomy over their own life choices.

I also see no problem with people who are parents who become concerned for the environment after becoming parents. After all, it would be strange if they didn't. It is entirely possible to "wake up" to issues which previously were of no concern to one as a result of new experiences.

Yes, when people become "parents" and suddenly believe they are gifted with unique insights because they are parents whereas people who don't have children can't possibly know about such things. Eg when people say "as a parent I know how distressing rape culture within schools must be". Er no? I can also find rape culture in schools just as distressing, it's not an issue exclusively for parents

Similarly, who are these parents who suddenly wake up to climate issues only once they've had children? So they clearly didn't give a shit before, until they had their own offspring and thought aha, now we must protect the planet for the sake of our progeny. How selfish.

Sorry forgot to add -

Similarly, who are these parents who suddenly wake up to climate issues only once they've had children? So they clearly didn't give a shit before, until they had their own offspring and thought aha, now we must protect the planet for the sake of our progeny. How selfish - just like me.

@Sundances

Stop blaming big business and conglomerates - it's not them it's us

They are providing oil , if they're a huge oil company, which makes plastic ie all those single use containers for veg, all the plastic toys for your dc and all the polyester in the many clothes you buy - it's YOU, not them.

Spot on. The big, bad corporations wouldn’t use oil and gas to manufacture mountains of plastic, if we we weren’t buying it.

Rather spot on, BoJoHoNo

The OP has clearly considered their environmental impact and is already doing some pretty key things to minimise their personal carbon footprint. People are just focussing on the title of the post and getting angry, rather than reading what's written and is factually correct. If they were entirely ignorant of issues such as recycling, car pollution, diet, overpopulation (which have been well documented for at least the past 40 years) then fair play to the person trying to 'educate' them. It's a case of knowing your audience and also allowing people to have some autonomy over their own life choices.

Spot on. The big, bad corporations wouldn’t use oil and gas to manufacture mountains of plastic, if we we weren’t buying it.

The big companies don't exactly make it easy to live a plastic free life though do they? Despite that being something that a lot of consumers want. Try doing a weekly shop in a supermarket and not buying at least a few items that aren't overly packaged in plastic. Yes, you can go to zero waste store if you have one locally, but not everyone has that option. I can save waste by buying 'wonky veg' but that comes packaged in plastic.