Destroying the Planet? I'm sure AIBU and I don't care

[Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong]

Inspired by another thread.

Live as a couple. Have no children and one 6 year old car. Have a 4 bed house which we love. Modest holidays (pre-covid would go abroad twice a year). We try not to be wasteful and recycle.

But please stop telling me we are destroying the planet! Just because we eat red meat and like nice clothes. I'm fed up of people coming out with the "go vegetarian / go vegan" lines. Just go away.

I think not having children trumps most people who are eco-warriors (with children) so on a comparison basis I think we would score quite well re our environmental credentials.

Apart from that, I'm not really bothered by environmental issues as there is naff all I can do to influence the behaviours of other people and especially big powerful conglomerates and governments. We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us. I also accept that the Earth has changed a lot in its very long history and inevitably will keep on changing. If the ultimate result is that it changes to become completely hostile for supporting human life, well, so be it. But hey that's probably thousands and thousands of years off and mumsnet will be a dim and distant memory by then.

@TheKeatingFive

But a lot of us are tackling this, in our own quiet way, and do not deserve to be lectured and hounded by the goodlier amongst us

I expect you’re making small changes that don’t require too much sacrifice, just like virtually everybody else.

My point is that shouldn’t mean you get to shut down debate, because pretty much no one will meet the high standards of ‘credibility’ you’ve decided people need to talk about it.

All I’m looking for is an open and honest conversation about. What it would take? Are we prepared to do it? Perhaps the conclusion is that no we aren’t, but I think it would be better to face that fact honestly rather than drift into like we seem to be doing.

This.

I an see where you are coming from OP. It's a very complex issue with a lot of shades of grey and very little that's bkack and white. Even the arguments regarding what type of car is the most eco friendly aren't as cut and dried as many make them out to be. What is best for one measure won't necessarily be best on another eg you might win on particulates but lose on CO2. Or win on emissions generally but when you start to think about raw materials, production methods and waste disposable things get a bit less clear. People can sometimes be a bit sanctimonious on specific environmental issues without taking a wider view.
I also understand how futile individual efforts can seem. About 10 years ago I worked in India for a short time and came back feeling that whatever I did about any of the world's problems was completely futile as a lot of what I had seen there made me realise the enormity of issues like poverty, inequality and the plight of the environment. But ultimately if we all do a little bit there is hope. A lot of little things do add up.
I agree with you though- your lifetime environmental footprint probably is much smaller than a large family's no matter how eco friendly they are, so you are having an impact.

I agree it’s not easy to go plastic-free. I suppose all we can do is buy less new stuff (regardless of what it’s made from), and choose plastic-free alternatives where possible.

As to “are we prepared to do it”, I think the honest answer is “no”. The threat is is intangible and in the future. Just like the health problems caused by obesity, alcohol, tobacco etc. But climate change is even more abstract, because it will affect people in developing countries first and we have a million excuses to deny reality or shift the blame.

Why do these conversations always start and end so negatively? This is something everyone needs to be a part of and understand properly. No the world hasnt got thousands of years left the way it is. We have ten years. TEN. Ten years to try and make a huge difference before 6 months of summer happens which means ten years before the weather changes so drastically crops around the world fails, sea levels rise and swallow entire enhabited islands (which is already happening.) and millions will die as a result. This is in your lifetime. In your families lifetime.

Theres a saying about its not about one person doing everything perfectly all the time, but about everyone doing things imperfectly all of the time to make a change.

Companies are the biggest polluters but they strive on consumerism. If everyone stopped buying then they would be forced to change and adapt or die as a business. The rise in eco consciousness means more small businesses popping up with eco friendly alternatives which is amazing and so easy to switch little thinhs used in the home.

Its estimated by 2050 there will be more plastic in the sea than fish and discoveries have now proved microplastic is in soil, the sea, food and inside humans even passing through the placenta into unborn babies and we do not know what this impact will have.

Boys genitalia os getting smaller as a result of the climate crisis so this is affecting humans so badly already ans the future will be dire.
The argument for kids vs no kids is always misinformed as well. Its not having kids thats the problem, its the added resources for them. So if someone has 3 kids who only eat vegan, wear hand me down clothes and cloth nappies and 2nd hand toys then they are doing better than a single woman who flys abroad twice a year, its a meat heavy diet and buys new clothes and cars a lot.

The point shouldn't be preaching, nor should it be wahh i will do what i want fuck everyone else. It should be something everyone needs to properly be educated on, not making false statements to justify everyone doing what they want.

I'm not really bothered by environmental issues as there is naff all I can do to influence the behaviours of other people and especially big powerful conglomerates and governments

Of course you can make a difference, the way citizens can always make a difference - by voting for a government who does care and can do something to protect the air you breathe, the water you drink and the health of the land you live on.

If you can't be bothered perhaps just do that one small, but vital, thing and let others run with it.

Tbh all these preachy carping types make me want to drive around eating burgers in a big fuck off diesel car with my six Primark wearing kids. You're not going to persuade people to do what you want when they think you're a self righteous arsehole.

Of course you can make a difference, the way citizens can always make a difference - by voting for a government who does care and can do something to protect the air you breathe, the water you drink and the health of the land you live on.

Good luck with that one. If you didn't vote with the majority in the last UK election, you won't get one of those.

@DogsAreShit

Tbh all these preachy carping types make me want to drive around eating burgers in a big fuck off diesel car with my six Primark wearing kids. You're not going to persuade people to do what you want when they think you're a self righteous arsehole.

I agree - You're not going to persuade people to do what you want when they think you're a self righteous arsehole.

I may be an arsehole but hopefully not a self-righteous one.

@DdraigGoch I always laugh when people say things like 'cycle for shopping little & often'

Family of 6.
8 miles to the supermarket.
To carry all the food, drink & household items on a bicycle would mean shopping every single day. Would take me over 2 hours each day.

Just not going to happen.

Companies are the biggest polluters but they strive on consumerism. If everyone stopped buying then they would be forced to change and adapt or die as a business. The rise in eco consciousness means more small businesses popping up with eco friendly alternatives which is amazing and so easy to switch little thinhs used in the home.

Unfortunately, as it stands globalisation has long since eroded the future viability of locally produced goods. Without the Government actually investing in British industry and small business, very little will change. We will continue to import food from overseas and it will come in single use plastic, justified by the fact it keeps food fresher for longer which is necessary and a 'good thing' because it reduces food spoilage and waste. Small businesses are priced out of the market, unable to price match the big supermarkets (and before long Amazon) on food. Modern lifestyles of working long hours, mean very few people would have the time to visit several different local shops a week to stock up on groceries even if that were an option.

I'm not saying people shouldn't reduce, reuse and recycle, just don't let those with the power deflect your attention from the bigger picture.

I honestly thought that hardly any people thought like this nowadays, just people like Trump. This thread is quite sad, and an eye-opener for me. My friends and colleagues (those with whom I have spoken about this) are all concerned about environmental issues. All ages.

Not all of them do enough (I certainly don’t) but to dismiss it with such contempt is worrying for our children and grandchildren, plus all other species.

This is the only issue where I think those who have a different opinion are quite simply wrong.

@RaskolnikovsGarret

I honestly thought that hardly any people thought like this nowadays, just people like Trump. This thread is quite sad, and an eye-opener for me. My friends and colleagues (those with whom I have spoken about this) are all concerned about environmental issues. All ages.

Not all of them do enough (I certainly don’t) but to dismiss it with such contempt is worrying for our children and grandchildren, plus all other species.

This is the only issue where I think those who have a different opinion are quite simply wrong.

I just happen to think there are issues much closer to home that are having a real discernible impact on all sorts of people in society that trump environmental issues, such as:

The rise of DV in lockdown;
Racism - despite the publication of the wonderful Sewell race report which states "we no longer see a Britain where the system is deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities”;
The gradual erosion of women-only safe spaces;
Emerging rape culture in schools;
Gender pay gap and zero hours contracts.

I'd sooner people were more concerned about the swill of toxicity affecting far too many people than preaching about the environment.

I suspect that privately some of your colleagues feel the same as the op and others (and me) but on a non- anonymous forum or workplace everyone will mouth the right platitudes and signal the right virtue.

[quote poshme]@DdraigGoch I always laugh when people say things like 'cycle for shopping little & often'

Family of 6.
8 miles to the supermarket.
To carry all the food, drink & household items on a bicycle would mean shopping every single day. Would take me over 2 hours each day.

Just not going to happen.

[/quote]
Exactly! There's also the assumption everyone lives in a town or city with Aldi's and plastic free shops abound - that you can cycle to. Just order it from Amazon.

YABU - we all need to do way more (unfortunately)

YABU because most of your posts sound like "but I want to do what I like so please don't point out the impact of my choices".

We all have to take responsibility for our choices.

Equally, we need the big players to take responsibility too, like getting fishing companies to clean up their crap instead of creating islands of plastics in the oceans, or manufacturers to be more responsible and reduce plastic at the source.

I try to make good choices for the environment, some are harder than others. Some areas of my life are bad for the environment because it's hard trying to be green in a system where people make a lot of money by destroying the earth. I'm not going throw my toys out if someone points out the impact of my actions though.

What's the point asking in AIBU? There's a 'climate change" section. Never ask a question you won't like the answer to!

[quote poshme]@DdraigGoch I always laugh when people say things like 'cycle for shopping little & often'

Family of 6.
8 miles to the supermarket.
To carry all the food, drink & household items on a bicycle would mean shopping every single day. Would take me over 2 hours each day.

Just not going to happen.

[/quote]
Then find something you can do which would make a difference. I'm sure that you're aware that your family is not a typical one (families with four or more children make up less than 4% of all families, factor in households with no dependents at all and the proportion will be even smaller) so there will be plenty of people it could work for.

I must fill in my Mumsnet bingo card for this thread.

I can now fill in "poster coming up with very unusual set-up as if their particular circumstances mean that no one else in a different situation could possibly take up an idea and use it"

Or just say fuck it, posh. You're under no obligation to 'find something' to 'make a difference'.

@LaurieFairyCake

I think the point is that it's not thousands of years off before the tipping point

It's about ten years to prevent millions of deaths

You're right that adding to the planet is one of the worst things you can do

Source for that? Doubt the IPCC AR5 gave those estimates 🙄

@DdraigGoch can I have a bingo card please?

@LolaSmiles

YABU because most of your posts sound like "but I want to do what I like so please don't point out the impact of my choices".

We all have to take responsibility for our choices.

Equally, we need the big players to take responsibility too, like getting fishing companies to clean up their crap instead of creating islands of plastics in the oceans, or manufacturers to be more responsible and reduce plastic at the source.

I try to make good choices for the environment, some are harder than others. Some areas of my life are bad for the environment because it's hard trying to be green in a system where people make a lot of money by destroying the earth. I'm not going throw my toys out if someone points out the impact of my actions though.

YABU because most of your posts sound like "but I want to do what I like so please don't point out the impact of my choices".

Not at all. The OP is aware it would be greener to go vegan (because they haven't been living under a rock), but doesn't want to and it's silly for someone to accuse them of 'destroying the planet' just because they like to eat meat and dairy sometimes. They have a lower carbon footprint than most, so fair play for them to keep doing what they're doing. I wouldn't 'throw my toys out of the pram' if someone told me I should go vegan, but I would think they were a nob if they believed that me eating a steak from time to time is 'destroying the planet'.

There's no point arguing with stupid.

BoJoHoNo
The scale of large scale meat farming is destroying the planet. Each pound we spend is a chance to show what sort of world we want. We create the demand with our purchasing.

I eat meat, less now than I used to. I also accept that's true that making that choice is bad for the planet. In an ideal world I'd find a way to eat meat that's farmed locally because that would be a better choice, but often regarding food I prioritise convenience. It's an area I'm trying to do better on. There'd be no point getting upset if someone pointed out that there's an environmental impact for that choice.

We, as humans, are living in a way that is taking so much from the planet and we are living in a way that's unsustainable.

It’s also fun to annoy little Greta and her joyless, sanctimonious, preaching friends. - pathetic