Destroying the Planet? I'm sure AIBU and I don't care

[Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong]

Inspired by another thread.

Live as a couple. Have no children and one 6 year old car. Have a 4 bed house which we love. Modest holidays (pre-covid would go abroad twice a year). We try not to be wasteful and recycle.

But please stop telling me we are destroying the planet! Just because we eat red meat and like nice clothes. I'm fed up of people coming out with the "go vegetarian / go vegan" lines. Just go away.

I think not having children trumps most people who are eco-warriors (with children) so on a comparison basis I think we would score quite well re our environmental credentials.

Apart from that, I'm not really bothered by environmental issues as there is naff all I can do to influence the behaviours of other people and especially big powerful conglomerates and governments. We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us. I also accept that the Earth has changed a lot in its very long history and inevitably will keep on changing. If the ultimate result is that it changes to become completely hostile for supporting human life, well, so be it. But hey that's probably thousands and thousands of years off and mumsnet will be a dim and distant memory by then.

Whats the point of the thread op? Because more and more people are becoming educated on the importance of the environment thankfully. No one says you cant fight for other causes like equality but you make no sense at all bringing other issues up when they have no compatability to the climate emergency. What use is equality when the human race is dead because we speeded up the process by thousands of years.

@ShaneTheThird

Why do these conversations always start and end so negatively? This is something everyone needs to be a part of and understand properly. No the world hasnt got thousands of years left the way it is. We have ten years. TEN. Ten years to try and make a huge difference before 6 months of summer happens which means ten years before the weather changes so drastically crops around the world fails, sea levels rise and swallow entire enhabited islands (which is already happening.) and millions will die as a result. This is in your lifetime. In your families lifetime.

Theres a saying about its not about one person doing everything perfectly all the time, but about everyone doing things imperfectly all of the time to make a change.

Companies are the biggest polluters but they strive on consumerism. If everyone stopped buying then they would be forced to change and adapt or die as a business. The rise in eco consciousness means more small businesses popping up with eco friendly alternatives which is amazing and so easy to switch little thinhs used in the home.

Its estimated by 2050 there will be more plastic in the sea than fish and discoveries have now proved microplastic is in soil, the sea, food and inside humans even passing through the placenta into unborn babies and we do not know what this impact will have.

Boys genitalia os getting smaller as a result of the climate crisis so this is affecting humans so badly already ans the future will be dire.
The argument for kids vs no kids is always misinformed as well. Its not having kids thats the problem, its the added resources for them. So if someone has 3 kids who only eat vegan, wear hand me down clothes and cloth nappies and 2nd hand toys then they are doing better than a single woman who flys abroad twice a year, its a meat heavy diet and buys new clothes and cars a lot.

The point shouldn't be preaching, nor should it be wahh i will do what i want fuck everyone else. It should be something everyone needs to properly be educated on, not making false statements to justify everyone doing what they want.

Well written post. Thank you.

There's been a Netflix documentary about the impact of commercial fishing methods. I wonder how long before we get a thread from someone saying "waaaaahhhhh, but I like fish and people are talking about the documentary that shows the issues".

Just give me a break from doom and gloom and this planet is going to die. Honestly it's not going to expire any time soon and by then the likes of Branson, Bezos and Elon Musk will have worked out how to transport colonies to other planets so the human race can continue
The level of selfishness and callousness of most people never ceases to amaze me. Truly.

We are already seeing people in poor countries starving to death because of lack of food caused by the destructive, polluting practices of rich western countries.

We are already seeing mass extinctions of numerous animals and plants and many more endangered.

We are already seeing unusual weather patterns, more natural disasters, pandemics etc etc

The effects are very noticeable already but hey, who cares about the billions and billions and billions of dead people (who will have suffered greatly beforehand), animals and plants when the likes of Branson, Bezos, Musk etc can just transport a select few billion people to a new planet!

How selfish can you actually be?!

I just despair

Me and DH are vegan, we try and buy as little plastic as possible, don’t have a car, grow our own veg etc but we never talk to anyone about our lifestyle choices unless they ask.
We do have children but at the time we had them we were naive.
If given the choice now we wouldn’t have children.

@ShaneTheThird

Whats the point of the thread op? Because more and more people are becoming educated on the importance of the environment thankfully. No one says you cant fight for other causes like equality but you make no sense at all bringing other issues up when they have no compatability to the climate emergency. What use is equality when the human race is dead because we speeded up the process by thousands of years.

Ok so you encounter someone who is struggling to make ends meet - say has to go to the food bank to feed their family and take on 2 jobs to pay their bills thanks to a shortage of decently paid jobs on proper protected contracts.

You then inform this person, "never mind, your issues have no compatability to the climate emergency". How very high handed of you, never mind devoid of empathy.

That's the point of my thread. Environmental issues are not the most important thing right now and the sooner we realise that and prioritise our efforts to where it really matters, the better for society in general.

Me and DH are vegan, we try and buy as little plastic as possible, don’t have a car, grow our own veg etc but we never talk to anyone about our lifestyle choices unless they ask.
We do have children but at the time we had them we were naive.
If given the choice now we wouldn’t have children.

That doesn't surprise me. I love the comment that you had children when you were naive but in retrospect you wouldn't have had them. I think if I were your child I would be rather upset to hear this as I think this is a truly horrible thing to say. You may be pleased with your eco friendly lifestyle but somehow to say this about your children I think misses the point of life.

If the ultimate result is that it changes to become completely hostile for supporting human life, well, so be it. But hey that's probably thousands and thousands of years off and mumsnet will be a dim and distant memory by then.

If you think we are thousands and thousands of years off human life being wiped out, you are deluded. We are talking tens of years.

You then inform this person, "never mind, your issues have no compatability to the climate emergency". How very high handed of you, never mind devoid of empathy.

I think most people tried to be really reasonable with you but you are just patently acting too ignorant to listen to facts. You are the one devoid of empathy. Have you not learned anything fron this thread about how poor people are the ones already affected most by the climate emergency?

I think most people tried to be really reasonable with you but you are just patently acting too ignorant to listen to facts
Well summed up.
The OP doesn't consider the environment to be a pressing issue, therefore people shouldn't point out the environmental consequences of their actions, and instead of taking action against climate change we should focus on other things that the OP considers more pressing.

@ShaneTheThird

You then inform this person, "never mind, your issues have no compatability to the climate emergency". How very high handed of you, never mind devoid of empathy.

I think most people tried to be really reasonable with you but you are just patently acting too ignorant to listen to facts. You are the one devoid of empathy. Have you not learned anything fron this thread about how poor people are the ones already affected most by the climate emergency?

So should we ask the "poor people" - what affects you more? Is it the climate emergency or, well, not having enough money?

It's a bit like Marie Antoinette saying "let them eat cake". As I said before, it's high handed and does come over as lacking empathy, Shane.

@LolaSmiles

BoJoHoNo The scale of large scale meat farming is destroying the planet. Each pound we spend is a chance to show what sort of world we want. We create the demand with our purchasing.

I eat meat, less now than I used to. I also accept that's true that making that choice is bad for the planet. In an ideal world I'd find a way to eat meat that's farmed locally because that would be a better choice, but often regarding food I prioritise convenience. It's an area I'm trying to do better on. There'd be no point getting upset if someone pointed out that there's an environmental impact for that choice.

We, as humans, are living in a way that is taking so much from the planet and we are living in a way that's unsustainable.

Well yes, the overpopulation of the planet has meant we are now needing to produce meat at a much faster rate. It's not as simple as everyone going vegan though, as all that will do is put pressure on factories to produce more 'fake' meat products. Whilst that may be slightly less better for the envrionment now, it's unlikely to be enough to make a big enough difference in the long term. If you look at the types of foods that are currently being peddled as the vegan staple diet they include a lot of water-intesive crops (so still not that great for the environment) like avocados and almonds, and I doubt we currently grow enough of those in the UK to sustain a fully vegan society.

It's all very well saying buy local as much as I try to and would love to do more, but I can't see there being that many small businesses left on the high street in a few years time as they just can't compete with the price and convenience of the big players. Governments could and should invest more into small British business but it's doubtful they will. They should have done that decades ago instead of letting supermarkets gain the monopoly. Now were in a situation where it's clear we need to produce more essential goods in the UK for the longevity of the planet. However, we don't have the infrastructure, skills or ability to do it cheaply enough without drastically pushing up the price of groceries.

The issue is it's not really possible to create a globalised civilisation full of technology then tell people 'well no actually, we've fucked up the planet by doing this, so now you need to go back to a much simpler way of life'. Yes we should all do our bit, but at the end of the day we need a much bigger societal shift to happen lead by the World's Governments. They are the ones who are ultimately facilitating the destruction of the plant.

Sadly, OP is indicative of how many, many people think. I'm not perfect, not even close. And I'm not vegan, not even vegetarian, though I don't eat red meat. I have 2 children. I have lots of plastic tat. But we have made the decision not to have a third child, only to have 1 car, to reduce the amount of single use plastic we buy, to avoid long haul flights etc, because we care about our children, yes, but also the planet, people in other countries already being affected, and future generations. And we also give to food banks, and charities that have nothing to do with the environment. Because, it is not a zero sum game. This is not virtue signalling - just little ways in which decent human beings who have the means, the huge privilege, can try to make a difference. If we all do our part there might be some hope

The op is doing her part though. She gives examples of this. Not sure what's sad about it.

Those who ask are absolute jokers, I’m not a vegan or vegetarian for health reasons and I never will be. I don’t have children but if I’m lucky I’ll have one or 2 and not dozens. I take one flight a year. I recycle what I can and re use what I can. Oh yes I have a car but I can’t get to work otherwise . So it is what it is.

BoJoHoNo
I've not mentioned fake meat products or anyone going vegan.

I'm pointing out that the levels that we are farming meat on an industrial scale is problematic, and that consumers play a role in that (and I included myself in that).

We don't need to produce meat on the scale we do. We choose to produce meat on the scale we do, and because we're so wrapped up in our own developed world bubble there's an inability/refusal to consider that maybe we could be making better choices.

I agree with you about the governments and corporations, but they aren't going to take action until the people show them it matters. The more we have people like the OP with their 'oh well i don't think the environment is a pressing issue', the more the governments will continue to pay lip service to climate change as they know there's enough people who aren't bothered about biodiversity, global warming, air pollution, plastic pollution etc.

We attended a zoom talk this week from a brilliant speaker, Gloria Barnett. She is an ex diver, and now she no longer dives she writes books for primary children about the oceans and the environment. 80% of the world's oxygen is generated in the oceans by sea grass and by plankton. As we use more fossil fuels, the CO2 generated is raising the acidity level of the oceans, and killing off these oxygen providers. We do what we can, try to avoid excessive plastics, recycle, small engined car, public transport when we could, but her talk has really made me think I need to do more. When we replace our car the environmental impact will be at the top of our list of attributes. The tipping point is much closer than we all think.

Some of what you say I agree with. But I think two foreign holidays a year is quite a lot!

@LolaSmiles my point is the future of the planet is much more vast than the issues most of the posters on here seem to think it's about. The experts who spend their careers studying environmental issues can't even agree on whether increased carbon emissions or depletion of natural resources are most likely to kill off humankind first.

There is no unanimous 'better choice' to make when you get down to the nitty gritty of living in the modern world. If I had a petrol car (I don't drive) I could decide to swap it for an electric one, but even that isn't really an ethical or sustainable choice when you look at how the batteries are produced (child labour, hazardous working conditions). Then in 10 years time we'll end up with around eleven 11 tonnes of spent lithium-ion batteries.

The developed world is a crazy beast when you start to analyse it in it's minutiae. In order to live and work in society we are forced to have a bank account. As a result, most of us are funding the tobacco and oil industries without even realising it just by having a bank account. The very villains of the piece most people think of when you ask them about climate change. Last time I checked, the only fully ethical UK bank is currently Triodos, so the consumer's sustainable 'choice' is very limited there as well.

I don't blame people for wanting to feel they are doing something to save humankind, but realistically life as we know it is highly unlikely to exist indefinitely, even if everyone suddenly went vegan, stopped buying plastic tat and recycled everything. Likewise I don't blame those who have listen to the issues and thought about them for decades before it became the woke thing to do, to have realised and accepted there's only so much they can do. It's rather arrogant of us to assume we can now save the planet by recycling a few cans. Ultimately humans will just be another one of the many many species to have inhabited the Earth during a tiny segment of it's existence. I don't think that's a bad thing, hopefully there will still be enough left of the planet to sustain other life.

I can understand how you feel, OP. We try to do our bit as much as possible but younger people really hack me off when they tell me I'm destroying the planet. I just point out to them that we fixed the hole in the ozone layer before they were even born lol!

Seriously, though, until massively environmentally damaging countries, like the USA & China, make sone big changes, my little efforts won't really matter.

@diwrnachoflleyn

Or just say fuck it, posh. You're under no obligation to 'find something' to 'make a difference'.

We're you in one of the parks in Nottingham the other day by any chance? You know, the ones where seven tonnes of litter were dumped. I bet that the people there went "fuck it, clearing up my crap is someone else's job".

We're you in one of the parks in Nottingham the other day by any chance? You know, the ones where seven tonnes of litter were dumped. I bet that the people there went "fuck it, clearing up my crap is someone else's job".

Nope. Never been to Nottingham in my life. Pretty far from there, in fact, I'm not quite sure where it actually is. I pack out what I pack in whilst in the outdoors, however. Nice try at the wild juxtaposition game, though.

@LolaSmiles my point is the future of the planet is much more vast than the issues most of the posters on here seem to think it's about. The experts who spend their careers studying environmental issues can't even agree on whether increased carbon emissions or depletion of natural resources are most likely to kill off humankind first.

And this is the sort of comment I was hoping for - to have a more nuanced discussion about these issues rather than hysterical hand-wringing, virtue signalling and hectoring of other people about their lifestyles. And don't even get me started on Extinction Rebellion.

As an example, I repaired a sports bra I've had for 10 years (so it doesn't owe me anything). But only the zip had broken - otherwise it's as good as new, in fact all these years later, M&S still sell exactly the same bra. It's not a great repair job, as I had to order the zip from Amazon (could only find one in red which is a bit short for the top which happens to be black). Due to lockdown had no option to cycle into town to procure one.

But is this a gain for the environment, really? The zip arrived in a little plastic bag and wrapped in a small cardboard envelope. Also a great big van had to come all the way from the Amazon warehouse to post it through my front door. Such is life!

And this is the sort of comment I was hoping for - to have a more nuanced discussion about these issues rather than hysterical hand-wringing, virtue signalling and hectoring of other people about their lifestyles. And don't even get me started on Extinction Rebellion.

I think you'll struggle to find that online tbh, especially on AIBU. People have short memories and just look for the flavour of the day gripe in the press or soundbite on the TV to latch onto and repeat over and over (everything has been said but not everyone has said it). This week it was litter left in the parks, which I don't think anyone would actually admit to doing or thinking is acceptable. But somehow the power of shame will leave the echo chamber and shake some sense into those who are actually doing it.

@BoJoHoNo

And this is the sort of comment I was hoping for - to have a more nuanced discussion about these issues rather than hysterical hand-wringing, virtue signalling and hectoring of other people about their lifestyles. And don't even get me started on Extinction Rebellion.

I think you'll struggle to find that online tbh, especially on AIBU. People have short memories and just look for the flavour of the day gripe in the press or soundbite on the TV to latch onto and repeat over and over (everything has been said but not everyone has said it). This week it was litter left in the parks, which I don't think anyone would actually admit to doing or thinking is acceptable. But somehow the power of shame will leave the echo chamber and shake some sense into those who are actually doing it.

I can only hope so. Some posters here appear to think that because of my views I'm not allowed to object to people leaving litter and that I am "shaming" them (the litterers that is)! I'm not sure where that mindset comes from.

Out of interest if we were to interview each of the people who left litter in that Nottingham park the other day, I wonder how many of them would say they feel passionately about protecting the environment?

@CrazySheepLady

I can understand how you feel, OP. We try to do our bit as much as possible but younger people really hack me off when they tell me I'm destroying the planet. I just point out to them that we fixed the hole in the ozone layer before they were even born lol!

Seriously, though, until massively environmentally damaging countries, like the USA & China, make sone big changes, my little efforts won't really matter.

Like you, I have tried (to little avail) to avoid buying product made in China.