Destroying the Planet? I'm sure AIBU and I don't care

[Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong]

Inspired by another thread.

Live as a couple. Have no children and one 6 year old car. Have a 4 bed house which we love. Modest holidays (pre-covid would go abroad twice a year). We try not to be wasteful and recycle.

But please stop telling me we are destroying the planet! Just because we eat red meat and like nice clothes. I'm fed up of people coming out with the "go vegetarian / go vegan" lines. Just go away.

I think not having children trumps most people who are eco-warriors (with children) so on a comparison basis I think we would score quite well re our environmental credentials.

Apart from that, I'm not really bothered by environmental issues as there is naff all I can do to influence the behaviours of other people and especially big powerful conglomerates and governments. We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us. I also accept that the Earth has changed a lot in its very long history and inevitably will keep on changing. If the ultimate result is that it changes to become completely hostile for supporting human life, well, so be it. But hey that's probably thousands and thousands of years off and mumsnet will be a dim and distant memory by then.

@Buccanarab

We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us.

Do you apply this thinking to all aspects of life or just the environment? I.e. Are you happy for your dad/husband/brother/colleagues to just pay lip service to equality as long as it doesn't inconvenience them or do you expect them to make an effort to support it?

If the latter your a massive hypocrite, if the former fair play carry on.

Must admit, I don't give a rats arse about the environment. I drive a petrol car, I eat meat, fly around 6 times a year. I have a gas boiler. Life is tough, so I'm going to enjoy myself as much as I can, and as cheaply as I can. When mother nature has decided that she has had enough of us, then fair play to her

There's 2 things that really, really bug me about that type of attitudes

1. You just know these are the same people who will screech and wail the loudest when the effects of climate change start to bite here and they can't carry on as normal.

2. The "I'm alright so fuck everyone else" sense of entitlement. The effects of climate change are already being seen through an increase in intensity and frequency of extreme weather events and these are most acutely being felt in third. People like the OP and Parky are essentially saying they're more than happy for those in the third world to be even more disadvantaged, and possibly die, than to hang out their washing on a line or walk to the shops.

Buccanarab, I do appreciate that you have asked it as a question rather than straight out accuse me of paying lip service to other areas of life, I admire you for being thoughtful.

The problem with these posts is that you or anyone else does not know me and it's therefore too easy to make assumptions (unfairly) about a poster here. Actually I believe that equality and all sorts of related issues are currently far more important and a priority to address over environmental matters.

The other items - I do hang my washing outside when it's sunny and warm, but no way when it's cold and damp will I not use my tumble dryer.

I also make a concerted effort to walk rather than drive, or cycle. I am not physically lazy in that way. If I wasn't I could never get away with indulging my sweet tooth daily

Used to be friends with someone who would preach on social media about how we all should stop flying, and buying shit etc. All whilst trying for her 3rd child. When I pointed our the hypocrisy in her posts (admittedly I felt a little attacked as pre-Covid I would fly long haul twice a year. No children though) she took great offence.

Used to be friends with someone who would preach on social media about how we all should stop flying, and buying shit etc. All whilst trying for her 3rd child. When I pointed our the hypocrisy in her posts (admittedly I felt a little attacked as pre-Covid I would fly long haul twice a year. No children though) she took great offence

Hmm I think I'm on the other side of this to an extent. I am a bit sensitive about it because I am pregnant with my 3rd (very surprise!) child but I do care very deeply about environmental issues. It is possible to be both. I don't preach on social media, mercifully, but I do try to make green choices and live in a way that impacts the environment as little as possible, and I do lie awake at night worrying about my DC's future. I don't like the idea that just by having 3 children you are some sort of mega-polluter. That is a popular view on MN though.

It's the hypocrisy that really annoys me.

On another forum, I extolled the virtue of slow-cooker liners.
I was attacked for using single-use plastic.
(a) I don't throw them in the sea after use.
(b) Main attacker had also recommended a particular brand of single-use nappies.

I re-acted to the stupid bitch & got loads of "likes" .

YANBU. Do as you please. Yes, having kids is about the worst you can do for the environment. As for the electric cars, the mining used to make them is horrific and it means poor people won't be able to drive. A lot of these environmentally friendly measures are out of reach to poor people. As for meat, yum. It's delicious.

I don't like the idea that just by having 3 children you are some sort of mega-polluter. That is a popular view on MN though.

It's true, though. I have 3 myself but I don't feel ashamed and all the shaming of eco warriors is like water on a duck's back to me.

Good for you for being honest.

I can get that people don’t really care on an individual level. But when they apparently don’t really care what sort of world their own kids, that they brought into the world themselves, I get pretty cross tbh.

It was more the preaching and total lack of self-awareness that got to me.

It was more the preaching and total lack of self-awareness that got to me

Yep I can see that. I switch off when anyone preaches about anything, even stuff I'm interested in! I'm massively anxious about having this 3rd baby and feel worse when I think about environmental stuff. There's so much to worry about - I didn't realise life would be this way.

Actually I believe that equality and all sorts of related issues are currently far more important and a priority to address over environmental matters.

Equality and environmental issues are very closely related, for many reasons. To be honest if you were really interested in equality you’d know that - a lot has been written about it.

Mother nature isn't giving us the boot, we are collectively destroying the fabric of our existence. Big companies and little people. You. Me. Everybody is enmeshed in a completely destructive way of being that isn't sustainable.

@Karmakarmachameleon

Actually I believe that equality and all sorts of related issues are currently far more important and a priority to address over environmental matters.

Equality and environmental issues are very closely related, for many reasons. To be honest if you were really interested in equality you’d know that - a lot has been written about it.

Perhaps you'd like to share an example? I would not conflate the equality issues I'm thinking of with environmental ones.

However it would be shame to derail this thread.

By not having children you are doing more to reduce your carbon footprint than the most committed eco warrior who does. People do the easy things like not fly and recycle bit compared to having children its like p*ssing in the wind and has virtually no effect.

I’ve sometimes wondered at the amount of plastic in blister packs of pills which are obviously single use.
When I was a child pills came in cardboard boxes or bottles.
Would it be impossible to have some sort of refillable or recyclable bottles or boxes?

@Racoonworld

I know what you mean. I have a friend whose constantly going on about her goals to reduce her carbon footprint. Last year it included cutting down on flying. She spent the previous years doing multiple flights per year including many long haul trips. So she had her fun, used so much carbon flying that she’ll never be able to make up, and is now being all preachy about how people shouldn’t do too many flights.

There's a guy in my industry he used to boast about doing speaking engagements at 30+ locations across the world a year, US, Far East, Middle East etc not just France. Then suddenly now he is Mr Eco Warrior lecturing everyone! Ha - it's so annoying

@Hophopandaway

By not having children you are doing more to reduce your carbon footprint than the most committed eco warrior who does. People do the easy things like not fly and recycle bit compared to having children its like p*ssing in the wind and has virtually no effect.

I'm fairly sure this is only true because of the ridiculous amount of resources your average Westerner will consume in their lifetime. It's not that having a child in itself is intrinsically bad for the environment.

I'm sure there are families in the developing world who have massive families and have a tiny fraction of the carbon footprint as s family that a Western family with only one would have.

I'm not perfect, nobody is but it does get my back up a little bit when people proclaim they dont care about the environment. The impacts of climate change are here and visible, they just aren't affecting 'us' for the most part due to geographical luck. So basically the people who have contributed the least to climate change are suffering the most and likely will continue to suffer a lot more before we do, which is utterly shit.

YABU to not care.

We've just come through a global pandemic that has affected every aspect of their lives. Actually, we're nit through it yet and don't know when we will be.

People are exhausted.

Jobs have been lost. More jobs will be lost shortly when furlough finally ends and many more businesses close.

Many other people have had to work longer hours, under more pressures.

A lot of people have been bereaved.

We all need a break and to recover from this - as a society and as humans. If that means that some people (and I include my family and I in this) spend less time thinking about the environment (whilst big businesses still cause most of the pollution as far as I know), then that's the way it's going to have to be.

Lecturing people. Berating people. Judging people for daring to not being as virtuous as some others is actually a really shitty thing to do right now.

Green shaming works both ways though - childfree by choice here and I've been sneered at on here loads of times for saying it's for environmental reasons.

I've been told it can't possibly be the main reason and that I mustn't have wanted them anyway and used the environment as a side handy justification. Ive also had the well I bet you still fly, eat meat etc etc, I've got kids but we are all vegan so it's the same.

It clearly hits a nerve with lots of people- it's an inconvenient truth that having children is one of the worst things to do for the environment. It's refreshing on here to see people acknowledge that though.

I'm not judging those that do have kids btw- I have nephews and friends with families. But I get wound up when people try to deny the truth to suit their own ideals.

It does scare me though. I hand on heart couldn't bring a child into the world now knowing what they are likely to face. Covid has made me feel stronger about it if anything. I always used to roll my eyes at the looting scenes in disaster movies but then the stockpiling last year just showed me what it would be like.

@SecretSpAD

We've just come through a global pandemic that has affected every aspect of their lives. Actually, we're nit through it yet and don't know when we will be.

People are exhausted.

Jobs have been lost. More jobs will be lost shortly when furlough finally ends and many more businesses close.

Many other people have had to work longer hours, under more pressures.

A lot of people have been bereaved.

We all need a break and to recover from this - as a society and as humans. If that means that some people (and I include my family and I in this) spend less time thinking about the environment (whilst big businesses still cause most of the pollution as far as I know), then that's the way it's going to have to be.

Lecturing people. Berating people. Judging people for daring to not being as virtuous as some others is actually a really shitty thing to do right now.

And when do those living in Africa who are suffering from drought and food shortages as a result of climate change get 'a break'? Genuinely asking as it's the most vulnerable who are the most at risk of feeling the impact if we just stop worrying about it. How do we explain that one?

I don't know anybody outside of MN who alludes to reducing their carbon footprint or foregoing pleasures for environmental reasons.
Even the vegans only ever mention animal welfare when trying to convert me.
Make of that what you will.

I agree completely, OP.

Having lost a year of my life to the pandemic, I am going to live the rest of it. That will include lots of flights to lots of lovely places, and I won’t be swapping my six-cylinder Mercedes convertible for a Nissan Leaf any time soon.

We don’t have children, we do recycle and we buy a hell of a lot less pointless, wasteful throwaway consumerist tat than most people, so my conscience is absolutely clear. It’s also fun to annoy little Greta and her joyless, sanctimonious, preaching friends.

"I'm fed up of people coming out with the "go vegetarian / go vegan" lines. Just go away."

Is this people you know telling you that, or just the drip, drip, drip on the media?

@SecretSpAD

We've just come through a global pandemic that has affected every aspect of their lives. Actually, we're nit through it yet and don't know when we will be.

People are exhausted.

Jobs have been lost. More jobs will be lost shortly when furlough finally ends and many more businesses close.

Many other people have had to work longer hours, under more pressures.

A lot of people have been bereaved.

We all need a break and to recover from this - as a society and as humans. If that means that some people (and I include my family and I in this) spend less time thinking about the environment (whilst big businesses still cause most of the pollution as far as I know), then that's the way it's going to have to be.

Lecturing people. Berating people. Judging people for daring to not being as virtuous as some others is actually a really shitty thing to do right now.

So you’ve had a tough year, therefore other people should have tougher lives? Cool.

@ZednotZee

I don't know anybody outside of MN who alludes to reducing their carbon footprint or foregoing pleasures for environmental reasons. Even the vegans only ever mention animal welfare when trying to convert me. Make of that what you will.

Same here.