Destroying the Planet? I'm sure AIBU and I don't care

[Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong]

Inspired by another thread.

Live as a couple. Have no children and one 6 year old car. Have a 4 bed house which we love. Modest holidays (pre-covid would go abroad twice a year). We try not to be wasteful and recycle.

But please stop telling me we are destroying the planet! Just because we eat red meat and like nice clothes. I'm fed up of people coming out with the "go vegetarian / go vegan" lines. Just go away.

I think not having children trumps most people who are eco-warriors (with children) so on a comparison basis I think we would score quite well re our environmental credentials.

Apart from that, I'm not really bothered by environmental issues as there is naff all I can do to influence the behaviours of other people and especially big powerful conglomerates and governments. We quietly do our "bit" when we're happy to do so as long as it doesn't inconvenience us. I also accept that the Earth has changed a lot in its very long history and inevitably will keep on changing. If the ultimate result is that it changes to become completely hostile for supporting human life, well, so be it. But hey that's probably thousands and thousands of years off and mumsnet will be a dim and distant memory by then.

I don't know about shaming. I think the litterers should be ashamed of themselves- no excuses for this

That is why I find it so sad when lovely young people, with so much going for them, state they won't have children " for the sake of the planet".

They probably won't be able to have children anyway. As a result of plastics, median sperm count will be zero by 2045 if current rates of decline continue. Which they likely will, as little is being done to change it. That means that a high percentage of today's schoolchildren may be infertile.

That is why I find it so sad when lovely young people, with so much going for them, state they won't have children " for the sake of the planet

I’m not sure why you’d be ‘sad’, regardless of the reason. Not having children is a perfectly legitimate choice.

Not having children is a perfectly legitimate choice.

True, but on Mumsnet we generally agree that not being able to have them when you want them is sad.

True, but on Mumsnet we generally agree that not being able to have them when you want them is sad.

I presume the people you’re talking about are able. So I don’t follow the logic.

I can only hope so. Some posters here appear to think that because of my views I'm not allowed to object to people leaving litter and that I am "shaming" them (the litterers that is)! I'm not sure where that mindset comes from.

If I had to hazard a guess I would say the thought process was something along the lines of... They took from your title 'that person doesn't care about destroying the planet' (which was very clearly not the point you were making at all). Now I'm annoyed with them, so need to skim read and look for any tiny thing I can pull them up on, oh they're a 'litter shamer,' bingo! At that point you would have hoped logical thinking would have encouraged them to go back and check they had fully understood your OP.

by then the likes of Branson, Bezos and Elon Musk will have worked out how to transport colonies to other planets so the human race can continue

YABU for thinking this lot are taking us or our (in my case imaginary) children anywhere.

Almost all of us can do more but I think we'd all generally agree that it's not going to be enough to turn the tide. It might come through technology or scientific advances in our lifetime though, I hope it does. In the meantime I do what I can, but not as much as I should and I think most people are the same.

OP, you sound like a nasty, selfish person.
It's depressing to read your posts. I hope not many people in the world are like you.

@TheKeatingFive

That is why I find it so sad when lovely young people, with so much going for them, state they won't have children " for the sake of the planet

I’m not sure why you’d be ‘sad’, regardless of the reason. Not having children is a perfectly legitimate choice.

I agree, not having children is of course a perfectly legitimate choice. But, if people really want children and feel that they shouldn't only because of environmental concerns that is what I think is really sad.

Why? Because, for heaven's sake, in the UK (apologies but I can only talk for the place I live in) we have the best conditions here. Check our privileges - access to the NHS, abundant food, reasonable allowances for freedom of belief and speech (ok there is currently some push back on this), no war or famine. And we have the vaccine so we are ahead in terms of learning to live with Covid. And before anyone else says it, yes I know there are a lot of current issues that impact really badly on people (I have listed some of these earlier) but this is where for me the priority lies in tackling these ahead of climate issues.

Bearing in mind in times past, if people who were born into the Middle Ages and regularly had to deal with plague, famine and low life expectancy took that view (oh it's a terrible world, too terrible to bring up children) then the human race might have died out already. Come on, there have been times in the past where this country has been a really shit place (two world wars, anyone?) so I have no time for the people who hang their decision on not to have children due to the environment. As I said to another poster, I think you really are missing the point of life.

Bearing in mind in times past, if people who were born into the Middle Ages and regularly had to deal with plague, famine and low life expectancy took that view (oh it's a terrible world, too terrible to bring up children) then the human race might have died out already. Come on, there have been times in the past where this country has been a really shit place (two world wars, anyone?) so I have no time for the people who hang their decision on not to have children due to the environment. As I said to another poster, I think you really are missing the point of life

It astounds me how little people appreciate how much better life is now than literally any point in human history.

I guess we really like apocalyptic thinking (just in time for Easter too)

@TheKeatingFive Research has found that chemicals (BPA and related) leaching from plastics may be a primary reason that sperm counts in Western countries have more than halved in the last 40 years. And continue to drop at roughly that same rate.

I know that you were making a different point - about choice. I was just pointing out that for today's children, choice is likely to be even more restricted by infertility.

@goldenshoe

by then the likes of Branson, Bezos and Elon Musk will have worked out how to transport colonies to other planets so the human race can continue

YABU for thinking this lot are taking us or our (in my case imaginary) children anywhere.

Almost all of us can do more but I think we'd all generally agree that it's not going to be enough to turn the tide. It might come through technology or scientific advances in our lifetime though, I hope it does. In the meantime I do what I can, but not as much as I should and I think most people are the same.

Oh dear. I was saying that tongue in check, I really don't have a clue whether this could really happen or not (as we have yet to identify a compatible planet not so far away from Earth) but it makes a great story for science fiction films.

Actually I have mixed feelings if we were somehow able to perpetuate the human race by moving to another planet, because I'm sure we'd go and fuck that one up the same way as we have the Earth.

@KineticSand

OP, you sound like a nasty, selfish person. It's depressing to read your posts. I hope not many people in the world are like you.

Gosh, you must have some serious insight if you can deduce I am a nasty, selfish person from a few written paragraphs. You really don't know me at all.

Did you read my earlier post, where I listed several issues that really do concern me? I'm repeating the list here for you.

The rise of DV in lockdown;
Racism - despite the publication of the wonderful wink Sewell race report which states "we no longer see a Britain where the system is deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities”;
The gradual erosion of women-only safe spaces;
Emerging rape culture in schools;
Gender pay gap and zero hours contracts.

So I am definitely a nasty, selfish person? Wow.

[quote Grumblesigh]@TheKeatingFive Research has found that chemicals (BPA and related) leaching from plastics may be a primary reason that sperm counts in Western countries have more than halved in the last 40 years. And continue to drop at roughly that same rate.

I know that you were making a different point - about choice. I was just pointing out that for today's children, choice is likely to be even more restricted by infertility.[/quote]
I'm not too worried really about declining sperm count. Everywhere I turn there seem to be babies, so some of the sperm are clearly getting through apparently without any problems at all.

Maybe the driver for sperm being produced is quality rather than quantity.

Ah, I was also making a cheeky dig there. An emoticon would have been appropriate

@goldenshoe

Ah, I was also making a cheeky dig there. An emoticon would have been appropriate

Ah yes, I have re-read your post and I agree, you have me bang to rights

Did you read my earlier post, where I listed several issues that really do concern me? I'm repeating the list here for you. The rise of DV in lockdown;
Racism - despite the publication of the wonderful wink Sewell race report which states "we no longer see a Britain where the system is deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities”;
The gradual erosion of women-only safe spaces;
Emerging rape culture in schools;
Gender pay gap and zero hours contracts.

How very selfish, racist and transphobic of you to want to consider how we can make the country we live in a better place for those currently living in it, before we've saved the planet and solved world peace.

On a side note, I'm surprised noone has called you out on owning a 10 year old bra. I read on here once it's not possible to buy no clothes for a year as some were horrified by the idea some people don't replace all their underwear every few months!

Quite, I accept my telling off with suitably good grace

As for the bra ... it's so well made it's bullet-proof (apart from the zip, obviously, though 10 years for one of those is going some). But yes, I'm sure I deserved to be called out for it, especially now I have replaced the zip with one that does not match the original design at all. I have tried to upload a picture of the offending item but even mumsnet doesn't like it and refuses to let me attach the image!

@Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong. It's all good, I still have a few 'old faithful' items of clothing that are knocking on 20 years old and I'll normally wear underwear until it gets holey beyond repair. Not really to 'save the planet' but more because I'm a tight arse and too lazy to go clothes shopping.

[quote BoJoHoNo]@Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong. It's all good, I still have a few 'old faithful' items of clothing that are knocking on 20 years old and I'll normally wear underwear until it gets holey beyond repair. Not really to 'save the planet' but more because I'm a tight arse and too lazy to go clothes shopping. [/quote]
Shsh! You shouldn't have admitted you're a tight arse and too lazy to go clothes shopping! You could have really dined out on this and upped your environmental cred, you know

Did they mean getting new pants every few months rather than bras?

I can see why OP is fed up, but I do think climate change needs to be talked about. OP needs to ignore anyone who is sanctimonious, and focus on people who aren't. We all need to make an effort as climate change isn't going away and sticking our heads in the sand doesn't work. I know because I've tried .

I'm definitely not perfect, I do so many things wrong and could tell you all about it. I do try, however every good thing I do seems to be cancelled out by something bad...

Good:
Used green electricity for years
Washable cleaning cloths instead of paper towels
No nappy bags for wee nappies and reuse plastic bags for poo ones
Rarely tumble dry
Cutting down on meat
Rarely use the car
No flights (I have young children and the idea of flying with them...)
Try to avoid food waste...
Green cleaning products
Try to not buy unnecessary clothes and house items
Recycle everything I can (it wouldn't fit in waste bin if I didn't)
Walk when I can

Bad:
I feel the cold and use the heating more than I would like
Anti-bac floor wipes
Disposable nappies as the cloth ones I used leaked...and used more resources in constant washing
Wash on 60 for towels and 40 generally
10+ loads a week due to dirt magnet toddler
I still eat meat
Children drink lots of milk
...children create a lot of food waste
Fast fashion but keep it for ages

As you can see, everything good is cancelled out by something bad! My current thinking is that it's better to do something like cutting down on meat (which is sustainable for me) rather than trying to go vegan (which definitely isn't), or deciding to fly once every couple of years (sustainable) rather than never flying again. If we all cut down a little bit, it would help.

[quote BoJoHoNo]@Ivebeeninlockdowntoolong. It's all good, I still have a few 'old faithful' items of clothing that are knocking on 20 years old and I'll normally wear underwear until it gets holey beyond repair. Not really to 'save the planet' but more because I'm a tight arse and too lazy to go clothes shopping. [/quote]
Yes, exactly. Also useful for shoe cleaning afterwards (dh's ones normally)

Did they mean getting new pants every few months rather than bras? Who knows, but if they're not smelly or stained does it matter if a person wears a pair of pants/socks or a bra for 12 months or more? I'm not forcing anyone else to do the same or feeling the need to bleat on about my 'green credentials'. Maybe I should dispense with underwear altogether as that would be the 'greenest' options wouldn't it?

The OP was originally about the people who are sanctimonious towards others about the environment, when noone is ever perfect themselves. They were asking whether they were being unreasonable to want those people to fuck off pontificating to them when they already have a relatively low carbon footprint. They are clearly already aware of the ways they could be even more green, but they actually want to have some small pleasures in life whilst continuing to do the things they already are to respect the environment. At the end of the day, that's all we can really ask of anyone. No where did the OP say I've decided I'm now going to go away and deliberately waste all the resources available to me just because I can.

There's no need for someone to feel guilt or for someone trying to guilt another person into thinking that they should be 'doing more' when even the environmental experts can't agree on what the biggest threat to humankind is. I would never be arrogant enough to tell someone they should go vegan or buy an electric car as it's greener, because it's impossible to know for sure what the impact of everyone making that decision would be on the planet in 10, 50, 100 years plus. If someone asked me my opinion on what the pros and cons of electric cars over petrol ones are I would be happy to discuss my thoughts on their relative environmental impact to the extent of my limited knowledge.

The real issue with these discussions is lack of readily available, sustainable consumer choice, which gets less for many essential items as time goes on. The argument gets trotted out that if you didn't buy those apples flown half the way across the world, packaged in several layers of plastic then companies wouldn't keep making them. If that's someones only option locally then how can they possibly make 'better choices'? People only see what's right in front of them. The supermarkets local to them have a good selection of loose fruit and veg options so they can't comprehend the fact that may not be the case all over the country.

I think there ought to be big incentives to reduce excessive packaging, methodologies/processes and unsustainable products at a business level.

For example - beauty products. Most could be sold in much bigger or refillable packs. For convenience, I like spray on Veet, but because they provide a plastic scraper held on with more plastic with every bottle (which only does about 1.5 shaves anyway), I've stopped. I bought a bamboo razer and 200 razer blades in substitute.

No reason why shampoo, shower gel etc couldn't be sold on much bigger packs.

Making environmental choices convenient will go a big way towards making them appealing.