I actually think my sister is a narcissistic and it's causing issues with family childcare

[digitalnative]

So apologises for the long message I have a DD 2 years old

When Covid came along I bubbled up with my mum re childcare as I work full time I split with DD dad while I was pregnant but remain friendly and both of us have new partners.

My mum looks after my DD two days a week which is so helpful as nursery costs are unreal and my ex although we get on well pays the bare min re maintaince when he pays and sees her on off.

My sister had a baby last July and has made it pretty clear that she doesn't think my mum can cope with both kids so has asked me to put my DD more days in nursery as she doesn't want to pay for nursery or any type of paid childcare (I already pay for 3 days nursery on my own) . Did I mention that her hubby earns about 100k a year and they live in a massive massive house, go on 4 long haul holidays (pre Covid a year) and she makes about 32k a year so total house income of 132k. I live in a 3 bed house and money is well not tight but I have to budget heavily or I'm in there red at end of month. My new partner is Self employed and makes about 16k a year and I make 40k, I wouldn't ask him to drop a day off work for his step daughter (although he would) because of loss of money.

I feared tell her I got a new job as it would mean I'm making more than her (and boy did she kick off) so my pay is a issue as I'm the younger sister and she mention it at every opportunity that I make more than her, but fluffs when asked how much she makes so I suspect it's probably higher than the above.

Mums not old and is more than willing to help with the kids, bar the fact my sister comes over with her baby on days mum has my daughter and basically expects to be waited on hand and foot (she's on mat leave) and makes it so my daughter is ignored all day and tells me that my normally placid daughter is basically a demon (she's no angel but never had any issues and DD loves the baby and always v gentle as she's a shy thing) and my sister seems to stoke the jealousy element and revel in it and I have seen it in action and it's horrible 😞 even my mums like yes that's not right after but never in the moment.

The thing is my therapist said in no uncertain terms my sister is a narcissist, and if you look up online she fits the bill to a T. She was pretty hideous growing up with tbh, hiting, stealing lying you name it I was on the receiving end. Problem is because she yells and screams and loses her shti my mum used to back down and approaches me as I'm the reasonable one so I always used to lose out (as a child my birthdays were a nightmare as she would literally kick off- so I wasn't allowed parties) . In fairness to my mum she's now trying to tackle my sister and after 34 years of it always being her way she's really doubling down.

I have known this was looming for a while, my sister makes my mum drive a hour to her house to look after the baby and keeps saying get me to put DD in nursery so you can come stay the night and do the nightshift for me (she's on mat leave and her hubby does 50% of the night feeds) and I need the cover to you know work and she's on mat leave 😞😞

My mums happy to have my sisters dd on days she has my dd just as long as my sister is working and not just wanting a break feom being a parent.

I feel like I'm being gas lighted. She's now pushing for my mum to stop having DD and start having her DD as she literally will not pay for nursery fees as it's only fair "she gets her turn" and money is so tight for them 🙄

Thing is we grew up on the poverty line and I remember what it's like to really struggle so I'm not gonna sit here and say we are poor but rn I have a lot of bills that come out (don't buy a house in a housing market bubble is all I'm saying) and nursery is killing me along with a lot of student debt and other debts DD father left me with 😒

I feel like I have to justify if I go shopping for nesscary clothes for DD, get my hair done or buy anything as my sister will say see mum she's rolling in it about you getting her to put DD in nursery for more days

Has anyone successfully dealt with narisctic family member ? The only stuff online is to cut them off which my mum begs me not to do to my sister as she's "never going to be happy or contented"
And do I sound like a hideous person for every now and then just wanting to do just that.

Mums staying strong for the moment but is making mum Uber guilty and my sister want to talk about "getting the childcare issue sorted out" before she goes back to work. She got the days which mum will cover and I'm not sure what she thinks she will achieve with me.

This is starting to make me feel v low. Doesn't help that I had a late stage MC and my baby would have been born a week after my sisters baby.. and that often gets rubbed in my face saying it was probably for the best of I can't provide for my current DD 😞

Final Update

I'm gonna take the advice that other posters have given re the above comments and go uh-huh and I actually don't have to share the medical timelines with anyone leave it at that. You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is unless your on the medical team that once reviewed everything that opinion means very little but thank you for sharing.

Thanks to all the helpful advice I have got, I posted a update on the plan going forward which is literally to remove myself from the equation and find a way to pay for extra childcare either through second job or overtime at my work. This probably isn't a satisfying answer for most but believe it or not it is for me, for mum, DD, DN and probably for DS. For them too I don't have to explain myself, and will be starting the slow fade soon. I have always been slight envious of people who have been able to assert themselves in a direct way so I'm going to work on that.

There is no villain or good cop in this story. Various shades of grey and a mental illness at the root cause. Nothing more.

Hopefully this thread will die a death soon so I can leave it live for anyone who is having a similar issue as the comments are cluttering up my inbox if not I will delete.

Take care all

Well done OP, I think you've made the best decision in a very difficult situation. Best wishes.

@PurpleMustang

From what you have written about how your sister behaves, to be honest I would worry if your daughter is safe around her. Your sister is already going to your mum's on days she has your DD on purpose to spoil the day, to take the attention away from your DD and on to her and her DD. Whether it is her narcissistic traits or jealousy either is dangerous. She is the one saying your mum can't cope with both children but then rocks up so your mum is looking after both and her. By demanding the childcare she is trying to win all round, she is finding a way to get your mum's attention and get you and your DD out of the equation. And if she is seeing your DD as an extension of you or that her child has to be more important then I would not want her left in a room alone with my child. She has hurt you in the past. Would she hurt your DD or as her DD gets older let or encourage her DD to hurt yours? She is obviously out of order with the miscarriage comment. She seems to think she is entitled to this help from your mum, as in, it all has to be equal. Even though the incomes/relationships are different, and she doesn't care about if you can afford the extra childcare, as in one breath she says you have to and in the next says you couldn't afford another child. You have good advice about grey rock etc. But if she is this determined, like hunting the job info down and your hairdressers, and heck knows what else, i would be inclined to tell her you could go to the police for advice as she is stalking you. Honestly I would find out about the free hours kids get and could you pay the extra nursery days till then for peace of mind. Then I would sell it to you mum and you could spend time with her and your DD together on dinner once a week and the odd weekend day etc. Quality time together

Yes. You cant fix your sister, you certainly cant trust her. You do not want her around your Dd, especially as she us going to expressly turn up when your mum is minding her. Good Luck, dont let her manipulate & dominate your life any more. If she ever shows ip at your door again at 2am, call the police.

I was so sad to read this thread, there are no winners here and I really feel for you Op. Ignore some of the posts, it is really hard to understand this if you're family dynamic is more 'normal'. I have read most of the thread but not all, so apologies if this has already been suggested, but the Stately Homes thread would be the best place to get the advice you are looking for. Many of the sage folk on there have been living with these situations for a long time and have a wealth of advice and you won't have to justify yourself to posters have no idea what a minefield this all is.

All I would say is that, when all is said and done distancing yourself or is the only way, either completely or grey rock. This may involve your Mum too if you won't honour your boundaries. It may help you to think of this as saving the next generation - your sister has already started on your little one and this will only escalate.

Also remember that all a narcissist wants is your supply of energy, good or bad, that's not their fault but it is a fact. But on some level they do know that if they are awful all of the time it is easier for us to walk away. Hence the good times when you think you see a glimmer of the sister you'd like to have. It's really sad but you have to save yourself - given the dynamic you've lived with for so long or having to accommodate unreasonable behaviour you may find it hard to put yourself firs,t so thinking of your little one and how you want her life to be may be may help.

Big hug to you.

The decision you’ve taken, understanding that you can’t win against a narc, so you’re not going to even play... perfect!

It’s on your terms, and you’re protecting yourself and your child.

But please, please, PLEASE, punch that woman’s lights out if she so much as looks at you again.

Who the fuck does she think she is banging on your door at 2am to demand an apology for your upset at her vile comment

What upsets me most about things like this is where the fuck were your family then? Why had nobody got your back against utter cruelty like that.

You’ll get to NC and you will find peace.

Overall, you mostly come across as someone who’s very keen to secure your free childcare, irrespective of your sister’s wants and needs
I guarantee the scenario is reversed in her head, and you are the villain

Imagine reading this entire thread and this is what you take from it. Not a word about the sister 'securing' childcare or the sisters vile behaviour and words. Totally mind boggling.

@MzHz

The decision you’ve taken, understanding that you can’t win against a narc, so you’re not going to even play... perfect!

It’s on your terms, and you’re protecting yourself and your child.

But please, please, PLEASE, punch that woman’s lights out if she so much as looks at you again.

Who the fuck does she think she is banging on your door at 2am to demand an apology for your upset at her vile comment

What upsets me most about things like this is where the fuck were your family then? Why had nobody got your back against utter cruelty like that.

You’ll get to NC and you will find peace.

I think my mum was like you know what she gets like when she's in a rage and then suggest getting a bolt and chain for my door.

So on a v low level she knows.

Thank you also the person who mentioned the stately homes thread I will have a look !

I feel more at peace than I have in ages actually. With a massive dose of guilt but that I think is normal ! Thank you all again

I think my mum was like you know what she gets like when she's in a rage and then suggest getting a bolt and chain for my door.

You know that’s crazy right? She’d advise you to get a bolt for your door rather than to back you up and give your sister a fucking decent rollicking

You’re flogging a dead horse with that family

You know if it came down to it, your dc wouldn’t be protected from dsis, don’t you?

Fade out, fade away.

Fear Obligation and Guilt (the FOG) are things you’re going to learn a lot about, stately homes is a brilliant place, it’ll help you a lot

You aren’t even close to being alone in this! (((Hug)))

Narcissistic Personality Disorder can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist or psychologist not a “therapist” and certainly not in the process of group therapy, and not when they aren’t even their patient. Your therapist might be an angel but he sounds like a quack and given how much you’re still ruminating over your sister how much assistance are you really getting overcoming this trauma?

She may well have narcissistic traits but the word is thrown about far too easily these days especially on here.

You tell your sister your arrangement with your mum is between you and your mum and then you go entirely no contact, or low contact.

There doesn’t need to be any drama in this at all just remove yourself from the situation into of obsessively feeding into it. You’ll be so much happier for it. Free yourself.

I don't know much but I can be fairly sure the Op knows her family situation and sister's diagnosis better than any of us.
It doesn't matter anyway, toxic behaviour is just that and doesn't need justifying.
Walk away is probably the right/only thing to do, but family situations are complex and people can take a lifetime to get to that point. Oh I wish it were as simple as a few words.

@RaginSpice

Narcissistic Personality Disorder can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist or psychologist not a “therapist” and certainly not in the process of group therapy, and not when they aren’t even their patient. Your therapist might be an angel but he sounds like a quack and given how much you’re still ruminating over your sister how much assistance are you really getting overcoming this trauma?

She may well have narcissistic traits but the word is thrown about far too easily these days especially on here.

You tell your sister your arrangement with your mum is between you and your mum and then you go entirely no contact, or low contact.

There doesn’t need to be any drama in this at all just remove yourself from the situation into of obsessively feeding into it. You’ll be so much happier for it. Free yourself.

Well in the nicest sense I could tell you the whole route of how she got classified and the timescales as she has been looked by a whole team of doctors and how they engage to each other, but since you know how it works I will save my breath for something more productive.

I'm going to do slow gas and grey rock.

@MzHz

I think my mum was like you know what she gets like when she's in a rage and then suggest getting a bolt and chain for my door.

You know that’s crazy right? She’d advise you to get a bolt for your door rather than to back you up and give your sister a fucking decent rollicking

You’re flogging a dead horse with that family

You know if it came down to it, your dc wouldn’t be protected from dsis, don’t you?

Fade out, fade away.

At the time it seemed pretty normal but if this thread has shown me, probably not.

@WHMum1806

I don't know much but I can be fairly sure the Op knows her family situation and sister's diagnosis better than any of us. It doesn't matter anyway, toxic behaviour is just that and doesn't need justifying. Walk away is probably the right/only thing to do, but family situations are complex and people can take a lifetime to get to that point. Oh I wish it were as simple as a few words.

I mean I think even if I laid this out with medical record/timescales/which doctors did what/ their qualifications - people would still make these comments.

People can think what they want.

Thank you for your comments by the way you have been fab !

People who are coming on here to gaslight you about the details of diagnosis and/or the red herring childcare issue are projecting or trying to look clever. What they think/say is not your problem. They can write what they like but only you know the reality of your experience OP.

Re your guilt. I wonder if every time you feel guilt about slow fading your family you can state to yourself 'This is about safeguarding my daughter'. I had to leave an abusive man who broke my jaw - every time I felt unsure or guilty (as obviously he was desperately upset his punchbag left him) about my decision I gave myself a mantra that 'I am keeping my DC safe'. It wasn't about me. Nothing can be more important than that eh? You are being a better mother than what you learnt in your family of origin, cutting them out is for safety and that is a win.

Your therapist might be an angel but he sounds like a quack and given how much you’re still ruminating over your sister how much assistance are you really getting overcoming this trauma?

Basically this

@ItscoldinAlaska

People who are coming on here to gaslight you about the details of diagnosis and/or the red herring childcare issue are projecting or trying to look clever. What they think/say is not your problem. They can write what they like but only you know the reality of your experience OP.

Re your guilt. I wonder if every time you feel guilt about slow fading your family you can state to yourself 'This is about safeguarding my daughter'. I had to leave an abusive man who broke my jaw - every time I felt unsure or guilty (as obviously he was desperately upset his punchbag left him) about my decision I gave myself a mantra that 'I am keeping my DC safe'. It wasn't about me. Nothing can be more important than that eh? You are being a better mother than what you learnt in your family of origin, cutting them out is for safety and that is a win.

That a very clever way to look at it thank you - I'm going to frame it in that way in my head to abate from the guilt.

Also I'm glad you got away from that man!

You'll be eligible for the 30 free hours OP - it's given as long as your household income is under 100K. So that might help.

All the NPD stuff aside, my friend had a really similar situation with her sister/mum recently. My friend (lets call her Alice) has a toddler DD and friends mum looked after her 2 days a week. Friends mum can only do 2 days a week childcare - she works the other 3. Then the other sister had a baby (let's call sister Beth), and Beth said it was fair for mum to look after each child one day each, and for Alice to use nursery an extra day, which Alice thought was unfair. Alice wanted the mum to look after both children together at the same time, and Beth said expecting their mother to watch over a toddler and a baby was too much for someone in their 60s, and one day each was fairer. They had a massive falling out over it, and I can see both sides.

@TheKeatingFive

Your therapist might be an angel but he sounds like a quack and given how much you’re still ruminating over your sister how much assistance are you really getting overcoming this trauma?

Basically this

Trauma implies singular indecent which this is not. Sadly.

Also Covid hasn't helped as getting access to help currently is hard and limited (and in some respects understandable)

Thing is this post I wanted to find out if what was being proposed was fair. Which it turns out was a very large red herring. It's like being in a fog and not knowing the way out. I wasn't seeing wood feom the trees

Probably would have been solved if I just had gone NC as had been suggested many times. Sadly this type of thing with my sister is a cycle and incredibly hard one to break at that. It's easy to say just go NC at first Indecent, but when this has been your life since day 0 and you have essentially even told your worth less (not to be confused as worthless) it warps you into trying harder to prove something you will never be able to prove. It's the frog in hot water analogy.

It's not that I didn't notice what was going on, it's just that I didn't realise how hot it was getting, I got used to it in a mad way. At the end of the day sadly it is me that has had to make the choice to go NC not my therapist/doctor .It's a frightening prospect but I can only control my actions/reactions and that is truly the saddest part of it all.

Everyone's horrified by what I have put here but honestly these situations are the norm for me and it's hard to think that maybe if I could just do x .. it would be better. Which is naive and dumb but here we all are.

@selflove

You'll be eligible for the 30 free hours OP - it's given as long as your household income is under 100K. So that might help.

All the NPD stuff aside, my friend had a really similar situation with her sister/mum recently. My friend (lets call her Alice) has a toddler DD and friends mum looked after her 2 days a week. Friends mum can only do 2 days a week childcare - she works the other 3. Then the other sister had a baby (let's call sister Beth), and Beth said it was fair for mum to look after each child one day each, and for Alice to use nursery an extra day, which Alice thought was unfair. Alice wanted the mum to look after both children together at the same time, and Beth said expecting their mother to watch over a toddler and a baby was too much for someone in their 60s, and one day each was fairer. They had a massive falling out over it, and I can see both sides.

I'm going to look at 30hrs because I think my sister said I wouldn't be eligible so don't even try but looks like I am when I checked this morning 🥳

On childcare it was (until last night) my mums call on what she felt happy with but my DS wants mum to do 0 days with my DD, and two with hers so switch one child out for another.

So i have stepped away from the madness, I suspect shes not be happy with it. She's already called my DM up screaming when I said I would put DD in nursery full time and just remove the pressure. Maddness. Since this is what she wanted 🥴

I'm not sure what she was screaming over and I don't care tbh. 10missed calls and counting. Mum thinks it's because DS wanted my mum to chose her and I have taken that option away by making it a choice by default. Again though just slowly distancing self from both...

Trauma implies singular indecent which this is not. Sadly.

Look into Complex PTSD, which is trauma from multiple incidents over an extended period. Particularly chronic childhood abuse/neglect.

The only thing you can really do about any type of family dynamic involving narcissism is put distance between you and the perpetrators.

Non-reaction is a useful technique if you have to deal with them, or people who are still in touch with them (flying monkeys) on occasion but it’s no substitute for distance.

You’ve already decided not to expose your daughter to a situation similar tit he one that usages you damage. That’s the right decision.

I agree with PP that your mother’s actions and reactions are an important part of this. At best she’s an enabler, it could also be that she’s a covert narcissist and it’s just that your sister’s actions are more obvious. Might worth looking into a narcissistic mother/golden child/scapegoat dynamic to see if it rings any bells for you.

Covert narcissism is commonly present in families where alcoholism has been present. Sometimes the alcoholic is the narcissist. Sometimes they are an alcoholic to try to cope with the pain caused by the covert narcissist. Covert narcissists can be very subtle and deeply manipulative without being at all aware of it themselves. They are often very good at getting out her family members, especially children, to act out what they want.

So tread carefully around how much you share of your inner feelings in this with your mother.

So say hypothetically that it isn't really ok for your mum to mind two kids together, which is pretty understandable, because a toddler and a newborn is so difficult. If your mum can only do two days childcare, to most people it seems fairest to say you and your sister get one day each.

HOWEVER the reason your sister is probably demanding she gets both days and you get none is presumably you've had a year (or more) of your mum providing you two days free childcare. So in your sisters (self centred) mind, you've had two days free childcare for a year, so now it should be her turn to have the two days free childcare for a year, which leaves no days available for you.

I'm not saying she's right (she sounds bonkers) but just that I can see where she is coming from in trying to insist upon what is "Fair".

Definitely apply for the 30hours as soon as you're eligible, it will make a massive difference.

I am so glad to read the FOG is lifting (fear obligation guilt). You are spot on about your sister being FURIOUS that you have taken her control over the situation away by choosing nursery full time. She is livid, she wanted to make your life hell and revel in the power of making your Mum choose her again.

I witnessed this with SIL to a much more subtle extent. She moved away with a new partner that she was really happy with and dropped MIL like a stone (had previously been "best friends") but every time we spent time with MIL she kicked off. She didn't want her Mum anymore but we aren't allowed her 😳🤦🏼‍♀️

We just stepped right away so our DC have ended up with no grandparents to speak of but that is also the PILs choice to not pull their daughter up on her behaviour her whole life and not accept their daughter is actually not particularly nice despite always having had preferential treatment over their son.

There is sadness and grief when you step away but also peace and calm.

update

Since this thread won't die I thought I would update you all.

I have said to DM/ DS I will put DD in full time nursery to help (with the side benefits of keeping my sanity and DD safe - not that I said that)

DS is livid. From my understandings her very loud yelling. If your wondering why I answered - I'm not actually sure 🥴 kinda thought she would be happy

Her points that I got that were lucid

• it's not for me to make that type of decision to put DD in nursery ( ?) and I was acting above my station
• she said now people will think that she's selfish and she doesn't like that ( I did at this point say no it was my choice to try and help as I know it's tough being working mum - she reverted to point 1 again but no explaining why)
• thinks mum should have made the call as she believes I need to be out in my place and of course her DD should come first and she wants mum to say this in black and white so no mistake 🥴

- I must have a secret money pot to be able to do this that I'm "hiding" and she want to know details (grey rocked this one)

Rounded off for the call with the message that she couldn't imagine putting her daughter into childcare because why have a child when for a stranger to raise her 🤯 and mention my lost baby again 😞 to drill home the point of - I am awful mother and I should apologise to her and mum for even putting mum in this situation.

So I'm going from the above call being from low contact to NC with both because she's furious and I actually doubt that she hasn't gotten this wound up on her own..even with her own challenges she has.

@selflove

So say hypothetically that it isn't really ok for your mum to mind two kids together, which is pretty understandable, because a toddler and a newborn is so difficult. If your mum can only do two days childcare, to most people it seems fairest to say you and your sister get one day each.

HOWEVER the reason your sister is probably demanding she gets both days and you get none is presumably you've had a year (or more) of your mum providing you two days free childcare. So in your sisters (self centred) mind, you've had two days free childcare for a year, so now it should be her turn to have the two days free childcare for a year, which leaves no days available for you.

I'm not saying she's right (she sounds bonkers) but just that I can see where she is coming from in trying to insist upon what is "Fair".

Definitely apply for the 30hours as soon as you're eligible, it will make a massive difference.

What do they say in every element of madness there a grain of truth, and I think your spot on. I have had my year so she wants her year(s) this is true fairness angle she's coming from.

She knows she's different because she's said I know why (me) has so many friends and I have none. It's not fair angle - which in her head isn't fair and her condition won't let her see why. For me that's v v sad. The problem belongs to other people not her so no actual change can happen. The circle continues on and she can't break it.

I'm hoping peace comes soon because I want out of this fun house.