I actually think my sister is a narcissistic and it's causing issues with family childcare

[digitalnative]

So apologises for the long message I have a DD 2 years old

When Covid came along I bubbled up with my mum re childcare as I work full time I split with DD dad while I was pregnant but remain friendly and both of us have new partners.

My mum looks after my DD two days a week which is so helpful as nursery costs are unreal and my ex although we get on well pays the bare min re maintaince when he pays and sees her on off.

My sister had a baby last July and has made it pretty clear that she doesn't think my mum can cope with both kids so has asked me to put my DD more days in nursery as she doesn't want to pay for nursery or any type of paid childcare (I already pay for 3 days nursery on my own) . Did I mention that her hubby earns about 100k a year and they live in a massive massive house, go on 4 long haul holidays (pre Covid a year) and she makes about 32k a year so total house income of 132k. I live in a 3 bed house and money is well not tight but I have to budget heavily or I'm in there red at end of month. My new partner is Self employed and makes about 16k a year and I make 40k, I wouldn't ask him to drop a day off work for his step daughter (although he would) because of loss of money.

I feared tell her I got a new job as it would mean I'm making more than her (and boy did she kick off) so my pay is a issue as I'm the younger sister and she mention it at every opportunity that I make more than her, but fluffs when asked how much she makes so I suspect it's probably higher than the above.

Mums not old and is more than willing to help with the kids, bar the fact my sister comes over with her baby on days mum has my daughter and basically expects to be waited on hand and foot (she's on mat leave) and makes it so my daughter is ignored all day and tells me that my normally placid daughter is basically a demon (she's no angel but never had any issues and DD loves the baby and always v gentle as she's a shy thing) and my sister seems to stoke the jealousy element and revel in it and I have seen it in action and it's horrible 😞 even my mums like yes that's not right after but never in the moment.

The thing is my therapist said in no uncertain terms my sister is a narcissist, and if you look up online she fits the bill to a T. She was pretty hideous growing up with tbh, hiting, stealing lying you name it I was on the receiving end. Problem is because she yells and screams and loses her shti my mum used to back down and approaches me as I'm the reasonable one so I always used to lose out (as a child my birthdays were a nightmare as she would literally kick off- so I wasn't allowed parties) . In fairness to my mum she's now trying to tackle my sister and after 34 years of it always being her way she's really doubling down.

I have known this was looming for a while, my sister makes my mum drive a hour to her house to look after the baby and keeps saying get me to put DD in nursery so you can come stay the night and do the nightshift for me (she's on mat leave and her hubby does 50% of the night feeds) and I need the cover to you know work and she's on mat leave 😞😞

My mums happy to have my sisters dd on days she has my dd just as long as my sister is working and not just wanting a break feom being a parent.

I feel like I'm being gas lighted. She's now pushing for my mum to stop having DD and start having her DD as she literally will not pay for nursery fees as it's only fair "she gets her turn" and money is so tight for them 🙄

Thing is we grew up on the poverty line and I remember what it's like to really struggle so I'm not gonna sit here and say we are poor but rn I have a lot of bills that come out (don't buy a house in a housing market bubble is all I'm saying) and nursery is killing me along with a lot of student debt and other debts DD father left me with 😒

I feel like I have to justify if I go shopping for nesscary clothes for DD, get my hair done or buy anything as my sister will say see mum she's rolling in it about you getting her to put DD in nursery for more days

Has anyone successfully dealt with narisctic family member ? The only stuff online is to cut them off which my mum begs me not to do to my sister as she's "never going to be happy or contented"
And do I sound like a hideous person for every now and then just wanting to do just that.

Mums staying strong for the moment but is making mum Uber guilty and my sister want to talk about "getting the childcare issue sorted out" before she goes back to work. She got the days which mum will cover and I'm not sure what she thinks she will achieve with me.

This is starting to make me feel v low. Doesn't help that I had a late stage MC and my baby would have been born a week after my sisters baby.. and that often gets rubbed in my face saying it was probably for the best of I can't provide for my current DD 😞

Just to be clear to the room. In wouldn't use the term narcissist unless my sister hadn't had a team of people give her that diagnosis. It is bandied around a lot but in this case I don't take it lightly and I don't see it as a character flaw, I see it as a medical condition. One which the whole family has had to deal with for years.

She isn't flawed she's sick, it's unfortunate the effects it's had on her and sadly our family. I reached out because I'm aware that my norms aren't normal and I sometimes need to sense check that.

This post wasn't about her illness, it was how to cope with her illness in a certain situation, who although actually doesn't come across vulnerable, she can be and how to balance to make sure it's fair to all and least amount of fall out.

If you read the thread you might see...

The irony. Did you read the bit where I said I'd read the entire thread?

Of course it is confusing when you state in the title "I actually think my sister is a narcissistic" but then state it's an offical diagnosis. Which is it? Has she been professionally diagnosed or do you "think" she is a narcissist?

@loopylou3030

Of course it is confusing when you state in the title "I actually think my sister is a narcissistic" but then state it's an offical diagnosis. Which is it? Has she been professionally diagnosed or do you "think" she is a narcissist?

Yup your spot on, that's me typing the way I talk in a slightly frustrated way. I should have been clearer your right.

She has a diagnosis but this was a long time ago, but if I'm honest I struggle with accepting it as it was such a long time ago and there were factors in play . She has good days and on those days I can't marry up with it. But sadly it's there in black and white.She also flat out doesn't agree with it either most of the time, on rare occasions she's hinted to it that she knows

I think that's the saddest part tbh

Jesus op. I'm sorry. I have one of those sisters . It's also been 34 years of hell for me too.
Best thing you can do is stay away from her and don't engage.
Do nothing that she asks..nothing. if your mum is happy to have your child,you continue.

Do not engage with a narcissist. I do not speak to my sister now. If we happen to be in the same place we walk past each other.

Your life will always be full of these kinds of demands,gaslighting and drama for as long as you engage with her.

I had hoped my parents would cop on to all that she is...and while my mother now does see it...nobody will do or say anything.

Ignore ignore ignore.

OP, I’m sorry you need to find your way through this. I think you’re 2 day each childcare arrangement is completely reasonable and it sounds like what your mother is fine with.

I just want to note that it’s hard working out what’s happening until you understand more about narcissism. There are different types of narcissists, you need to recognise them. I’m not a medical professional but was raised by 2 and my late husband was one. My boundaries were non-existent. The bottom line is they are wired differently to people who have empathy. A narcissist will never feel sorry for you, just want to harm you to boost their ego. They show control n different ways. Some are obviously assholes, others are passive aggressive. This in my view isn’t a medical condition, it’s how they are and they are fine with it.

They can copy social norms and appear to behave normally, but it’s not real because it’s not natural for them. Even so they don’t care.

Your mother may not be doing you any favours. It sounds to me like she had always favoured your sister over you, this is something a parent with narcissistic traits will do. You say your father openly put your sister first , from what you’ve described it looks to me like so does your mother put your sister first. Other posters have mentioned triangulation, you need to learn about this. It could be that your mother is toying with you in her own way, making sure you know that she might look after your sisters baby full time, despite this being unequal, letting you know you aren’t as important as your sister. The denial of parties was familiar to me, this sort of thing to make me enjoy life less as a child came from both parents. So too did my being hurt because ‘she doesn’t understand, she can’t help it, you need to be the bigger person and show more understanding’.

I hope you really do find out what you’re dealing with OP as you have clearly been conditioned as a child like I was.

Has your therapist suggested cutting contact?

I think you need to go no c/ mininal contact with her and tell her why. She sounds awful and jealous of her niece. Ar least say no that you will not be changing childcare and you will not discuss it further. If your mum is happy to look after two children, and you are happy, then if your sister doesnt like it, she can use a nursery.

@Notimeforaname

Jesus op. I'm sorry. I have one of those sisters . It's also been 34 years of hell for me too. Best thing you can do is stay away from her and don't engage. Do nothing that she asks..nothing. if your mum is happy to have your child,you continue.

Do not engage with a narcissist. I do not speak to my sister now. If we happen to be in the same place we walk past each other.

Your life will always be full of these kinds of demands,gaslighting and drama for as long as you engage with her.

I had hoped my parents would cop on to all that she is...and while my mother now does see it...nobody will do or say anything.

Ignore ignore ignore.

Did you do the slow fade or was there a fight ? I struggle with the fact that if she didn't have this condition, there would be some outcome that wasn't NC but you know I'm being naive. I'm gonna give grey rocking a go.

How did your family handle the NC (throw is my biggest worry is my family)

I'm also frustrated that maybe if she had the right help we could have a normal relationship. I know she knows there's something up deep down, and I know she can't help it. But if anything on this thread has shown me, the environment has warped my what was normal. I can't let that happen to DD.

When I think of going NC I feel like I'm grieving for something I never actually had.

So you have a sister who is abusive and from what you've said is she is trying to either hurt or neglect your daughter because of her jealous issues. Your Mum, for whatever reason, won't stand up to her and tell her to piss off.

And what this thread is about, is you going on about how much she earns as a household and how much you earn as a household and how its not fair if she gets childcare and you don't as its harder for you to afford it.

I'm sorry but its not about your daughter's relationship with your mother. Nor is it about the money. Nor is it about what is fair.

If you Mum isn't looking after your daughter well - for any reason - and isn't maintaining your sister and standing up for your daughter, you need to take action whether you damn well like it or not.

Instead you've written a post on MN whinging about your shitty relationship with your sister. And the thread boils down to is YOU want to 'win' the argument with your sister and not pay for childcare on principle rather than give proper thought as to the dynamics of the situation and do whats best for your daughter and put her first.

Talk about missing the point.

You then go on about your sister's diagnosis and the therapist. At no point do you examine how you effectively feed the issue by trying to compete with your sister for your mother's time.

You can not 'win' the argument over childcare, if your mother doesn't deal with things. And you pretty much have admitted from what you've said that she never will adequately.

If your Mum can't deal with it, take it out of your Mum's hands. Take your daughter out of the equation. If your Mum wants to find a backbone and actually deal with her other daughter, she has the opportunity. But my suspicion is she will probably pay lip service to you and do whatever your sister says because she lacks the ability/willingness to properly confront your sister and tell her NO and how things will be on HER terms rather than your sisters. Simply because its the easy option and thats what she's always done - enabled your sister rather than properly be the parent in the relationship.

Bottomline is this: Your sister can't shit on you if you and your daughter are not in her life. And that looks like it probably includes having a childcare arrangement with your mother.

Step out of the drama, rather than continually being an active participant and allowing your daughter to get caught up in the cross fire.

The only way to deal with abusive relationships of any kind is to shut them down and end them.

@Milliepossum

OP, I’m sorry you need to find your way through this. I think you’re 2 day each childcare arrangement is completely reasonable and it sounds like what your mother is fine with.

I just want to note that it’s hard working out what’s happening until you understand more about narcissism. There are different types of narcissists, you need to recognise them. I’m not a medical professional but was raised by 2 and my late husband was one. My boundaries were non-existent. The bottom line is they are wired differently to people who have empathy. A narcissist will never feel sorry for you, just want to harm you to boost their ego. They show control n different ways. Some are obviously assholes, others are passive aggressive. This in my view isn’t a medical condition, it’s how they are and they are fine with it.

They can copy social norms and appear to behave normally, but it’s not real because it’s not natural for them. Even so they don’t care.

Your mother may not be doing you any favours. It sounds to me like she had always favoured your sister over you, this is something a parent with narcissistic traits will do. You say your father openly put your sister first , from what you’ve described it looks to me like so does your mother put your sister first. Other posters have mentioned triangulation, you need to learn about this. It could be that your mother is toying with you in her own way, making sure you know that she might look after your sisters baby full time, despite this being unequal, letting you know you aren’t as important as your sister. The denial of parties was familiar to me, this sort of thing to make me enjoy life less as a child came from both parents. So too did my being hurt because ‘she doesn’t understand, she can’t help it, you need to be the bigger person and show more understanding’.

I hope you really do find out what you’re dealing with OP as you have clearly been conditioned as a child like I was.

Is there any books I can read you can recommend ? I worry about my mum tbh.. I worry they are similar. Not in their approach but always same feeling received. As I think about it my mum drilled in my DS was sick... I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole.

Did you go NC with both parents ? I fear losing them even though I think they aren't really there. My therapy currently focuses on my boundaries opposed to my sister actions which is probably what your saying here.

@Notimeforaname

Has your therapist suggested cutting contact?

Yes after the comment re my M/C little girl when it put me into a spin.

He said we have to keep you safe and get me on a level playing field (which made me feel weird because at the time - I had been keeping quite because I didn't want my sisters pregnancy to end badly because I stressed her out) .

He's always said it's good to have the option but wouldn't tell me what I should do just to know it's a option tbh.

@RedToothBrush

So you have a sister who is abusive and from what you've said is she is trying to either hurt or neglect your daughter because of her jealous issues. Your Mum, for whatever reason, won't stand up to her and tell her to piss off.

And what this thread is about, is you going on about how much she earns as a household and how much you earn as a household and how its not fair if she gets childcare and you don't as its harder for you to afford it.

I'm sorry but its not about your daughter's relationship with your mother. Nor is it about the money. Nor is it about what is fair.

If you Mum isn't looking after your daughter well - for any reason - and isn't maintaining your sister and standing up for your daughter, you need to take action whether you damn well like it or not.

Instead you've written a post on MN whinging about your shitty relationship with your sister. And the thread boils down to is YOU want to 'win' the argument with your sister and not pay for childcare on principle rather than give proper thought as to the dynamics of the situation and do whats best for your daughter and put her first.

Talk about missing the point.

You then go on about your sister's diagnosis and the therapist. At no point do you examine how you effectively feed the issue by trying to compete with your sister for your mother's time.

You can not 'win' the argument over childcare, if your mother doesn't deal with things. And you pretty much have admitted from what you've said that she never will adequately.

If your Mum can't deal with it, take it out of your Mum's hands. Take your daughter out of the equation. If your Mum wants to find a backbone and actually deal with her other daughter, she has the opportunity. But my suspicion is she will probably pay lip service to you and do whatever your sister says because she lacks the ability/willingness to properly confront your sister and tell her NO and how things will be on HER terms rather than your sisters. Simply because its the easy option and thats what she's always done - enabled your sister rather than properly be the parent in the relationship.

Bottomline is this: Your sister can't shit on you if you and your daughter are not in her life. And that looks like it probably includes having a childcare arrangement with your mother.

Step out of the drama, rather than continually being an active participant and allowing your daughter to get caught up in the cross fire.

The only way to deal with abusive relationships of any kind is to shut them down and end them.

Direct and to the point. I think I started to realise this about 50 comments in but your right.

I did miss the point. I do that a lot actually it would turn out.

I asked a question but that wasn't really the bones of it.

As I think I have said previously, my perspective has been warped slightly, I'm working on it.

I have been caught up in the is it fair what I should have been looking at is this situation healthy.

Although I don't know why I shy away from the term abusive when it comes to this. In my head abusive signals intent and I think it's more of a case you swim where sharks live you might get eaten ? And I have been wandering around going is this shark bad or am I going mad.

Instead you've written a post on MN whinging about your shitty relationship with your sister. And the thread boils down to is YOU want to 'win' the argument with your sister and not pay for childcare on principle rather than give proper thought as to the dynamics of the situation and do whats best for your daughter and put her first.

Think this is grossly unfair. Sounds like the OP has had to put up with being pushed to the side for the sake of her sister her whole life. Why should she skint herself so that the sister gets her own way again? My mum (I wrote in my first post the way my aunt is, so her sister) still struggles with her self esteem and feelings that my nan favoured and looked out for my aunt more than her even to this day.

Your mum needs to get hold of this OP, you need to have another frank discussion with her.

OP, to answer your question, I have had intensive help from 2 psychologists in the last few years. The only book I can really think of is called Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft which although is written from a male behavioural perspective is equally applicable to others and mainly deals with emotional abuse. Others may have more targeted suggestions for books on narcissism. My situation has been unusual and a bit extreme, my marriage was a bad one for over 2 decades. Part of working out how I got into that situation was understanding my upbringing and the conditioning back then of accepting I was not important and my needs didn’t matter.

I am not NC with my parents or the bad sibling, but I only talk or see them twice a year at most. Once I stopped having anyone interfering with my thinking on a daily basis , when I now see them their behaviour is crystal clear and I don’t fall for it.

@loveheartss

Instead you've written a post on MN whinging about your shitty relationship with your sister. And the thread boils down to is YOU want to 'win' the argument with your sister and not pay for childcare on principle rather than give proper thought as to the dynamics of the situation and do whats best for your daughter and put her first.

Think this is grossly unfair. Sounds like the OP has had to put up with being pushed to the side for the sake of her sister her whole life. Why should she skint herself so that the sister gets her own way again? My mum (I wrote in my first post the way my aunt is, so her sister) still struggles with her self esteem and feelings that my nan favoured and looked out for my aunt more than her even to this day.

Your mum needs to get hold of this OP, you need to have another frank discussion with her.

I'm going to chat to my mum. I do actually have a sense of dread which means as some other have pointed out this may not be solely a DS issue.

I can understand the commenters reaction though, to me this is normal. To her it's glaring obviously how it will play out. I struggle to see this as abuse as both DM and DS have suffered horribly at the hands of my father. Which as I type it sounds like a excuse, which in part it might be.

My only reasoning I can see this is the only family I was given. But at some point it maybe better for me to just take myself out of the kitchen to enable my daughter to be safe.

Even if it breaks a part of me, I won't let her be broken

@loveheartss

Instead you've written a post on MN whinging about your shitty relationship with your sister. And the thread boils down to is YOU want to 'win' the argument with your sister and not pay for childcare on principle rather than give proper thought as to the dynamics of the situation and do whats best for your daughter and put her first.

Think this is grossly unfair. Sounds like the OP has had to put up with being pushed to the side for the sake of her sister her whole life. Why should she skint herself so that the sister gets her own way again? My mum (I wrote in my first post the way my aunt is, so her sister) still struggles with her self esteem and feelings that my nan favoured and looked out for my aunt more than her even to this day.

Your mum needs to get hold of this OP, you need to have another frank discussion with her.

The Mum won't do it until the OP spells out that she is no longer prepared to put up with the shit from the sister.

The Mum doesn't stand up to the sister because the OP always puts up with the sister in the end so the Mum doesn't have to make that choice to tell the sister to belt up.

Thats the problem unfortunately.

It has to be spelt out bluntly that the Mum is part of the problem and she needs to deal with it, because she will continue to avoid that confrontation for ever.

The Mum needs to let her actions do the talking rather than always paying lip service to the OP and saying to her stuff like 'oh I agree your sister is out of order'. She has to demostrate it. Otherwise the OP and her daughter are always going to be in the situation where they will be collateral damage.

It sucks to high heaven, but you can't 'win' by staying in the dynamic. You have to step back. There is no 'winning' against abusive relations. There is only reclaiming your life and taking control of it without the abuser being part of it.

@RedToothBrush I see what you're saying.

And OP, I think that's a good idea. Your mum is entirely central to this, unfortunately.

You can’t change the other people’s behaviour but you can change how you react to it.

OP, your mother has indulged your sister her whole life and never said “No” to her.

Right now it’s not about the equality who gets what and what is fair.It’s about you treading the line and your daughter following your steps.

I’d completely disengage with your sister and have discussion with your mother.

Now it’s about your DD OP.
Break the chain of golden child and put your DD in the nursery full time.

It’s only a matter of time before your DD will get dished out the same treatment as you did as a child (and still experiencing).

If your mother wants the relationship with your DD then it can be continued in your house and at your terms without your sister’s involvement.

Good luck

@Milliepossum

OP, to answer your question, I have had intensive help from 2 psychologists in the last few years. The only book I can really think of is called Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft which although is written from a male behavioural perspective is equally applicable to others and mainly deals with emotional abuse. Others may have more targeted suggestions for books on narcissism. My situation has been unusual and a bit extreme, my marriage was a bad one for over 2 decades. Part of working out how I got into that situation was understanding my upbringing and the conditioning back then of accepting I was not important and my needs didn’t matter.

I am not NC with my parents or the bad sibling, but I only talk or see them twice a year at most. Once I stopped having anyone interfering with my thinking on a daily basis , when I now see them their behaviour is crystal clear and I don’t fall for it.

I'm going to download that and give it a read. Something about how you worded that makes me feel less alone, I don't know what it was but I recognised something in it.thank you

I'm glad you got breathing space, I hope one day to have that same clarity !

It takes some time OP and some headspace away from the manipulation. I hope you get some relief from the situation and it works out for you.

Thank you all for your comments.I really do appreciate them. I'm going to do some reading, and I'm going to put wheels in motion re breaking the cycle, and get some outside support. Any resources you guys can think of throw my way !

I will not have my DD walk my path. None of it maybe intentional but that doesn't change the outcome.

I have two daughters one here and one other world side, and I want to make them proud and if I have to get a second job and it will be no ones business but my own.

I make my girls proud. Thank you all for answering the question I didn't realise I needed answering 💓💓

My brother is has narc traits and is a generally toxic person. I cut him out of my life over a year ago, after a particularly appalling example of narc behaviour. He probably hasn't noticed my lack of contact but it's a relief for me - I don't give him or his equally unpleasant wife any head space now. My DM has contact with him - he phones every now and then - but she doesn't pass on any info about my life/family and doesn't try to tell me about him. DM accepts he's a toxic person but he's her son, so she wants to maintain a relationship - but she understands why I don't want to and doesn't press the issue as ultimately she'd just end up pushing me away from her, and I'm her main source of physical/emotional support since DF died.
So you probably don't want to hear this OP, but reducing contact is probably the best thing you can do for yourself and to protect your DD. You won't be able to help your DM - she sees what your DS is, she knows it, but has always put up with it and allowed her behaviour to go unchallenged. This is a unlikely to change now. Basically what I'm saying is save yourself and save your little girl from all the drama and nastiness of having your DS as her Aunt - I suspect your sister will pit her child against yours at every opportunity.

@NotTheMrMenAgain

My brother is has narc traits and is a generally toxic person. I cut him out of my life over a year ago, after a particularly appalling example of narc behaviour. He probably hasn't noticed my lack of contact but it's a relief for me - I don't give him or his equally unpleasant wife any head space now. My DM has contact with him - he phones every now and then - but she doesn't pass on any info about my life/family and doesn't try to tell me about him. DM accepts he's a toxic person but he's her son, so she wants to maintain a relationship - but she understands why I don't want to and doesn't press the issue as ultimately she'd just end up pushing me away from her, and I'm her main source of physical/emotional support since DF died. So you probably don't want to hear this OP, but reducing contact is probably the best thing you can do for yourself and to protect your DD. You won't be able to help your DM - she sees what your DS is, she knows it, but has always put up with it and allowed her behaviour to go unchallenged. This is a unlikely to change now. Basically what I'm saying is save yourself and save your little girl from all the drama and nastiness of having your DS as her Aunt - I suspect your sister will pit her child against yours at every opportunity.

This was a fear of mine deep down. Will my DD never be good enough, because I know she is. I know just how precious my little girl is.

Funnily because I never wanted to complete with my sister but I feel like I got dragged into that mindset a bit.

I won't have that with my girl and if I can help it I won't allow it with my niece even if that means distance.

OP I suggest you start the method of grey rock on this thread to the idiots who simply cannot comprehend that someone can have a medical condition that the family knows about and not act on it.