I actually think my sister is a narcissistic and it's causing issues with family childcare

[digitalnative]

So apologises for the long message I have a DD 2 years old

When Covid came along I bubbled up with my mum re childcare as I work full time I split with DD dad while I was pregnant but remain friendly and both of us have new partners.

My mum looks after my DD two days a week which is so helpful as nursery costs are unreal and my ex although we get on well pays the bare min re maintaince when he pays and sees her on off.

My sister had a baby last July and has made it pretty clear that she doesn't think my mum can cope with both kids so has asked me to put my DD more days in nursery as she doesn't want to pay for nursery or any type of paid childcare (I already pay for 3 days nursery on my own) . Did I mention that her hubby earns about 100k a year and they live in a massive massive house, go on 4 long haul holidays (pre Covid a year) and she makes about 32k a year so total house income of 132k. I live in a 3 bed house and money is well not tight but I have to budget heavily or I'm in there red at end of month. My new partner is Self employed and makes about 16k a year and I make 40k, I wouldn't ask him to drop a day off work for his step daughter (although he would) because of loss of money.

I feared tell her I got a new job as it would mean I'm making more than her (and boy did she kick off) so my pay is a issue as I'm the younger sister and she mention it at every opportunity that I make more than her, but fluffs when asked how much she makes so I suspect it's probably higher than the above.

Mums not old and is more than willing to help with the kids, bar the fact my sister comes over with her baby on days mum has my daughter and basically expects to be waited on hand and foot (she's on mat leave) and makes it so my daughter is ignored all day and tells me that my normally placid daughter is basically a demon (she's no angel but never had any issues and DD loves the baby and always v gentle as she's a shy thing) and my sister seems to stoke the jealousy element and revel in it and I have seen it in action and it's horrible 😞 even my mums like yes that's not right after but never in the moment.

The thing is my therapist said in no uncertain terms my sister is a narcissist, and if you look up online she fits the bill to a T. She was pretty hideous growing up with tbh, hiting, stealing lying you name it I was on the receiving end. Problem is because she yells and screams and loses her shti my mum used to back down and approaches me as I'm the reasonable one so I always used to lose out (as a child my birthdays were a nightmare as she would literally kick off- so I wasn't allowed parties) . In fairness to my mum she's now trying to tackle my sister and after 34 years of it always being her way she's really doubling down.

I have known this was looming for a while, my sister makes my mum drive a hour to her house to look after the baby and keeps saying get me to put DD in nursery so you can come stay the night and do the nightshift for me (she's on mat leave and her hubby does 50% of the night feeds) and I need the cover to you know work and she's on mat leave 😞😞

My mums happy to have my sisters dd on days she has my dd just as long as my sister is working and not just wanting a break feom being a parent.

I feel like I'm being gas lighted. She's now pushing for my mum to stop having DD and start having her DD as she literally will not pay for nursery fees as it's only fair "she gets her turn" and money is so tight for them 🙄

Thing is we grew up on the poverty line and I remember what it's like to really struggle so I'm not gonna sit here and say we are poor but rn I have a lot of bills that come out (don't buy a house in a housing market bubble is all I'm saying) and nursery is killing me along with a lot of student debt and other debts DD father left me with 😒

I feel like I have to justify if I go shopping for nesscary clothes for DD, get my hair done or buy anything as my sister will say see mum she's rolling in it about you getting her to put DD in nursery for more days

Has anyone successfully dealt with narisctic family member ? The only stuff online is to cut them off which my mum begs me not to do to my sister as she's "never going to be happy or contented"
And do I sound like a hideous person for every now and then just wanting to do just that.

Mums staying strong for the moment but is making mum Uber guilty and my sister want to talk about "getting the childcare issue sorted out" before she goes back to work. She got the days which mum will cover and I'm not sure what she thinks she will achieve with me.

This is starting to make me feel v low. Doesn't help that I had a late stage MC and my baby would have been born a week after my sisters baby.. and that often gets rubbed in my face saying it was probably for the best of I can't provide for my current DD 😞

Totally agree.. The therapist is an utterly unprofessional to have suggested someone they have never met has a personality disorder on someone they haven’t worked with

Even if you can’t be bothered to read the whole thread, at least read the OP’s posts. It’s really easy to do, just press ‘see all’ at the bottom of her posts.
You’ll find out some really valuable information.

@EarthieBear

Mumsnet really needs an area for AIBU posts where people can go post only if they agree 100% with the OP.

Over and out, feel horribly sorry for your mum.

They also need an area for people who only read the OP and ignore any further information.

"my sister makes my mum drive a hour to her house to look after the baby and keeps saying get me to put DD in nursery"

Your sister doesn't make your mum do anything-she chooses to do it.

If your mum won't have your daughter on her own, then for the sake of your daughter put her in nursery fulltime.

@EarthieBear

Mumsnet really needs an area for AIBU posts where people can go post only if they agree 100% with the OP.

Over and out, feel horribly sorry for your mum.

All I can say I feel horribly sorry for your siblings if you have any .

At least my sister when she's in her right sense of mind can get help since it's on her medical notes some people don't have that luxury.

Hi, just something to think about - while this is your mum's issue, she has shown in the past that she capitulates to your sister. So even if your mum agrees to keep providing childcare to your DD you have to know that she will likely be speaking to and/or seeing your sister at the same time. That might undermine you 'grey rocking' your sister because your sister could tell your DD things about you that may or may not be true. You're also in a position where your DD and your sisters DD might be looked after at your mum's together, and if your sister is a narcissist is she going to teach her daughter the same behaviours, with a caregiver (your mum) who won't intervene out of fear of your sister? I think I would get advice on the debt and try to find paid childcare for your DD although it is hard, it seems like an awkward situation to leave your DD in.

I would wonder if you can have a (secret) conversation with your DM. Admit that things were hard for you all etc etc . Explain you really want her to have a relationship with DD, that sharing her with DSis' DD won't work. That you don't want to spend time with DSis because it's seriously affecting your health.

How does DM think she can keep the relationship with you.
I would suggest forgetting the child care and arrange for DM to call every say Sunday or two evenings a week or whatever so you and DD can have a relationship which DM will be able to keep going despite shenanigans from DSis.
Then the balls in DM court. Because you can't fix this.

@notalwaysalondoner

I think all you can do is try and have an open and honest conversation with your mum - "Mum, I'm getting really worried that DSis is putting so much pressure on you to reduce the days you care for DD so she doesn't have to pay for her DD to go to nursery. I love the bond you have with DD and appreciate your help so much, and it's really worrying me that it might stop. I just want to clarify, while I can't know all the details of their finances, DP and I earn £xx per year vs. their household income of about £xx per year, so financially it really makes a huge difference to us too and we really appreciate it. I just wanted to confirm with you that you are happy with the current set up of 2 days a week and were not planning on changing that, as I appreciate it so much and it's really worrrying me'.

You could be even more explicit and have a discussion about how to best manage DSis on this topic if your mum also fully agrees she has a problem and is incredibly demanding.

Then if your mum is fully onboard, I agree with the simple response above - 'Mum and I are both happy with the arrangement and don't intend to change anything'. And get your mum to repeat the same.

I agree with this except the part about giving detailed information on OP’s earnings.

In the past, I have seen this information get relayed to the narcissit who then uses it as additional leverage. They are very good at inventing any narrative it takes to pressure others into doing what they want.

If your sister is diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder - then things are serious.

I guess the only thing you can do is manage your own part. You can't change your sister. You can't change your mother trying to placate her.

If I were you, with a NPD sister and a mother unable to deal with her and allowing you to be injured as a child, I would be looking for ways to keep the raising of my own child away from both of them and separate myself from dependence on my mother for childcare.

I understand this would be very difficult financially until your DD is 3 and getting her free hours ... but I would try my best to find a way because being able to manage my own childcare without having to buy in to their pathologies would be invaluable.

I think that is all you can do. You can't change them. All you can do is protect yourself and your DD and not rely on them.

@CatsHairEverywhere

For a start *@digitalnative* no counsellor (also called therapist), is capable of providing a diagnosis. They are life and self help coaches there to guide you through the difficulties you’re facing. They’re not allowed to provide a diagnosis. Any diagnosis of narcissism would have been made privately between your sister, mother and a psychiatrist.

Perhaps make up a less fanciful story.

If you know about this route then you will know exactly the road of how one gets a diagnosis. It has to be approved by medical team, he saw us to help us, together and singularity.

Why I'm justifiing that to a random on mumsnet is beyond me

Totally agree.. The therapist is an utterly unprofessional to have suggested someone they have never met has a personality disorder on someone they haven’t worked with

FFS Just what is going on with this thread? At least read the OP's posts if you're not going to read the entire thread.

@CatsHairEverywhere

For a start *@digitalnative* no counsellor (also called therapist), is capable of providing a diagnosis. They are life and self help coaches there to guide you through the difficulties you’re facing. They’re not allowed to provide a diagnosis. Any diagnosis of narcissism would have been made privately between your sister, mother and a psychiatrist.

Perhaps make up a less fanciful story.

And you think diagnosis are not shared among family members? Especially when it’s a diagnosis used to explain behaviour against one of the family?

Give over.

My DD’s diagnosis (narcolepsy amongst other things) is known by our whole household because that’s what happens when someone has a medical condition that affects everyone in the house.

@Bumpsadaisie

If your sister is diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder - then things are serious.

I guess the only thing you can do is manage your own part. You can't change your sister. You can't change your mother trying to placate her.

If I were you, with a NPD sister and a mother unable to deal with her and allowing you to be injured as a child, I would be looking for ways to keep the raising of my own child away from both of them and separate myself from dependence on my mother for childcare.

I understand this would be very difficult financially until your DD is 3 and getting her free hours ... but I would try my best to find a way because being able to manage my own childcare without having to buy in to their pathologies would be invaluable.

I think that is all you can do. You can't change them. All you can do is protect yourself and your DD and not rely on them.

Oh I hadn't thought I would get the 30hrs as I thought it was for people who were on a lower income 🥴

OP, I think you need to stop engaging with your DS for your own sanity.

If your DM has your DD 2 days a week, then it is up to your DM to decide whether she feels able to look after both DC on those days or can offer your DSis other days.

Just agree with your DM that your arrangement stands, and don’t engage with your Dsis and her arrangements.

So hard for you and your mum and your DD! I would be very careful and protective of the bond between your DD and her grandma. It sounds like your sister wants get between them and supplant your DD with her own DD. I don't see an easy solution here, as you are not dealing with a rationale person, and while you might (understandably) want her out of your life, your mum feels beholden to her and will want a relationship with her new grandchild. Wishing you luck with it!

And yes, i've RTFT. I just have a different opinion on it then some others - and i am not alone.

No you haven't read the full thread...you keep repeating the same untruth in every post you make. THE THERAPIST DID WORK WITH THE SISTER!

Wow those first 4 pages were frustrating to get through, does anyone bother reading the thread anymore!?

Anyway OP firstly, the miscarriage comment alone would have me closing the door on the relationship. That for me is not something I could ever come back from, I really wouldn't care what condition I thought they might have, I would have to protect myself because I wouldn't be able to cope having things like that said to me (I have had a miscarriage myself and a comment like that would of really destroyed me at the time and the immediate aftermath).

Secondly, I do agree this is something your mum needs to discuss with your sister. If she is happy with the arrangement she has with you right now then she needs to tell your sister that, in no uncertain terms. It is completely wrong for your sister to try and dictate your mothers time and what she does with her life, although it sounds like you have all been putting up with atrocious behaviour from her your whole lives.

The reason I completely believe you, is because my auntie is exactly like this. The world very much revolves around her, it and everyone owes her a favour, she speaks to my nan (her mum) appallingly. My mum was in a very violent relationship in her 20s, if it ever gets spoken about now, my auntie claims it was her it happened to. She threatens to kill herself if my nan doesn't give in to her. My nan takes my aunties daughter to work every day because my auntie won't get up in the mornings, her son lived with my nan for 4 years from the age of 14 because him and my aunt just couldn't make it work. You get the picture - she has been an absolute drain on my nan and grandad (although he doesn't get treated as bad as my nan) and I cannot tolerate her at all.

For your own mental health, please consider cutting her out as much as you can. People like this are so damaging to others. You can have sympathy all you want but you need to know when to draw the line. Your mum needs to be really firm with her now - it sounds like it has gone on too long, and she really does not want to be in the situation my poor nan is now with a nearly 50 year old teenager who still strops and sulks if she doesn't get her own way.

@cherrytreesa

Totally agree.. The therapist is an utterly unprofessional to have suggested someone they have never met has a personality disorder on someone they haven’t worked with

FFS Just what is going on with this thread? At least read the OP's posts if you're not going to read the entire thread.

I have no idea. I just came on to see if I was being unreasonable re childcare because I know that my view maybe biased and I was trying to figure out if I was focusing on the wrong things. Which with the money thing I was - the posters are right it's not about money or childcare really.

It's about managing a situation that is really no ones fault at the root of it. My sister is not well, but that also means I cant fix it.

A sharks gonna be a shark is my grandmas term.

Sadly I thought maybe people would be able to share what they did in similar situations to mine dealing with narcissists and seemed to have upset a lot of people.

Although had some really good advice re grey rocking and it's been a somewhat gentle reminder that boundaries need to always be maintained even when my sister is having a good patch.

@digitalnative

I wouldn't bother responding to those who haven't read the three thoroughly or are being deliberately obtuse. You don't owe them a justification. But, I suspect, that's a learned behaviour from your background.

In your position I'd sit down with my mum and decide what we're doing with regard to her care. Put it on paper if needed.

Next is the tricky bit - how would your mum feel about stating facts to your sister? I.e. Digitalnative and I have come to this arrangement, on these days, etc. Would you like to share any of these days or discuss what would fit in with me?

And if you and your mum did it together would that be worse or better?
Does your sister's OH play any part in this? Would his presence be a help or a hinderance - can he get her to see what is reasonable and suited to all?

I suspect they are either trolls or probably triggered by someone calling them in the past tbh.

See, I had quite a bit of sympathy until I read that. I've read the whole thread and I'd still agree with PPs that a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder - a serious condition - gets thrown around far too easily. I would be concerned that someone doing "family therapy" is making these kinds of decisions - what are their qualifications in this area?

Either way, dismissing those who disagree with you as trolls or "the triggered" isn't the best way to approach responses you receive.

@loveheartss

Wow those first 4 pages were frustrating to get through, does anyone bother reading the thread anymore!?

Anyway OP firstly, the miscarriage comment alone would have me closing the door on the relationship. That for me is not something I could ever come back from, I really wouldn't care what condition I thought they might have, I would have to protect myself because I wouldn't be able to cope having things like that said to me (I have had a miscarriage myself and a comment like that would of really destroyed me at the time and the immediate aftermath).

Secondly, I do agree this is something your mum needs to discuss with your sister. If she is happy with the arrangement she has with you right now then she needs to tell your sister that, in no uncertain terms. It is completely wrong for your sister to try and dictate your mothers time and what she does with her life, although it sounds like you have all been putting up with atrocious behaviour from her your whole lives.

The reason I completely believe you, is because my auntie is exactly like this. The world very much revolves around her, it and everyone owes her a favour, she speaks to my nan (her mum) appallingly. My mum was in a very violent relationship in her 20s, if it ever gets spoken about now, my auntie claims it was her it happened to. She threatens to kill herself if my nan doesn't give in to her. My nan takes my aunties daughter to work every day because my auntie won't get up in the mornings, her son lived with my nan for 4 years from the age of 14 because him and my aunt just couldn't make it work. You get the picture - she has been an absolute drain on my nan and grandad (although he doesn't get treated as bad as my nan) and I cannot tolerate her at all.

For your own mental health, please consider cutting her out as much as you can. People like this are so damaging to others. You can have sympathy all you want but you need to know when to draw the line. Your mum needs to be really firm with her now - it sounds like it has gone on too long, and she really does not want to be in the situation my poor nan is now with a nearly 50 year old teenager who still strops and sulks if she doesn't get her own way.

This is what terrifies me and tbh I think my mum also.

The comment made me so very upset. I think that may have been the turning point for my mum because we were at a family event and the whole room went quite.
I think the others had a word with her and said look that wasn't normal.

Mad how your boundaries get caught up and you don't know what's real or isn't real.

[quote Gatehouse77]**@digitalnative

I wouldn't bother responding to those who haven't read the three thoroughly or are being deliberately obtuse. You don't owe them a justification. But, I suspect, that's a learned behaviour from your background.

In your position I'd sit down with my mum and decide what we're doing with regard to her care. Put it on paper if needed.

Next is the tricky bit - how would your mum feel about stating facts to your sister? I.e. Digitalnative and I have come to this arrangement, on these days, etc. Would you like to share any of these days or discuss what would fit in with me?

And if you and your mum did it together would that be worse or better?
Does your sister's OH play any part in this? Would his presence be a help or a hinderance - can he get her to see what is reasonable and suited to all?[/quote]
That first paragraph was so accurate that I had to reread it twice. Thank you, I don't even realise I'm doing it tbh.

So my DS other half is on receiving end via my DS hatred of his father/mother and family. I doubt he will want to engage, I suspect he's happy to be out of the firing line for a while. That sounds awful but he's really lovely and I don't blame him one second. Also I don't think she tells him that our mum helps her at all as he seemed shocked when my mum came over for a night and he came back to surprise my DS that my mum was there. He was baffled when my mum explained she's been doing it for a while

The only way I think that would work is my mum doing it and me just stepping back completely from the situation. Thing is I do love my sister, because it's really not her fault and I can take it but I can't bare my DD to face the same fate. Grey rocking it is

[quote CatsHairEverywhere]@JustLyra I never for a second said diagnosis wouldn’t be shared within a family - everyone in my family knows of my diagnosis. I am saying a diagnosis would not have been giving during a family counselling session by an unqualified professional as the OP so claiming.[/quote]
You've got no idea of the qualifications of the people the OP and her family have worked with.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

I suspect they are either trolls or probably triggered by someone calling them in the past tbh.

See, I had quite a bit of sympathy until I read that. I've read the whole thread and I'd still agree with PPs that a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder - a serious condition - gets thrown around far too easily. I would be concerned that someone doing "family therapy" is making these kinds of decisions - what are their qualifications in this area?

Either way, dismissing those who disagree with you as trolls or "the triggered" isn't the best way to approach responses you receive.

If you read the thread you might see a) how she came to this diagnosis and b) why exactly I responded the way I responded.

In the nicest sense not looking for sympathy, people to ask me to prove myself to comments on mumsnet re my sisters condition and how she got diagnosed. I would only end be crucified for sharing that information - so either way wrong. I'm also unable to give you the 2 other sides of the story.

I have been fairly specific on the advice I need a) is what the childcare arrangement suggest unfair and how to make it fair if so ? b) has anyone been in similar situation and if so what did you do c) maybe naively I was hoping that someone could tell about a experience where they didn't have to go NC with my sister or even things got better.
This was naive on my part.

I probably have seemed harsh as this is all very closely tied up with the loss of my daughter and I'm having to repeat myself because people aren't reading the comments and that is frustrating.