I actually think my sister is a narcissistic and it's causing issues with family childcare

[digitalnative]

So apologises for the long message I have a DD 2 years old

When Covid came along I bubbled up with my mum re childcare as I work full time I split with DD dad while I was pregnant but remain friendly and both of us have new partners.

My mum looks after my DD two days a week which is so helpful as nursery costs are unreal and my ex although we get on well pays the bare min re maintaince when he pays and sees her on off.

My sister had a baby last July and has made it pretty clear that she doesn't think my mum can cope with both kids so has asked me to put my DD more days in nursery as she doesn't want to pay for nursery or any type of paid childcare (I already pay for 3 days nursery on my own) . Did I mention that her hubby earns about 100k a year and they live in a massive massive house, go on 4 long haul holidays (pre Covid a year) and she makes about 32k a year so total house income of 132k. I live in a 3 bed house and money is well not tight but I have to budget heavily or I'm in there red at end of month. My new partner is Self employed and makes about 16k a year and I make 40k, I wouldn't ask him to drop a day off work for his step daughter (although he would) because of loss of money.

I feared tell her I got a new job as it would mean I'm making more than her (and boy did she kick off) so my pay is a issue as I'm the younger sister and she mention it at every opportunity that I make more than her, but fluffs when asked how much she makes so I suspect it's probably higher than the above.

Mums not old and is more than willing to help with the kids, bar the fact my sister comes over with her baby on days mum has my daughter and basically expects to be waited on hand and foot (she's on mat leave) and makes it so my daughter is ignored all day and tells me that my normally placid daughter is basically a demon (she's no angel but never had any issues and DD loves the baby and always v gentle as she's a shy thing) and my sister seems to stoke the jealousy element and revel in it and I have seen it in action and it's horrible 😞 even my mums like yes that's not right after but never in the moment.

The thing is my therapist said in no uncertain terms my sister is a narcissist, and if you look up online she fits the bill to a T. She was pretty hideous growing up with tbh, hiting, stealing lying you name it I was on the receiving end. Problem is because she yells and screams and loses her shti my mum used to back down and approaches me as I'm the reasonable one so I always used to lose out (as a child my birthdays were a nightmare as she would literally kick off- so I wasn't allowed parties) . In fairness to my mum she's now trying to tackle my sister and after 34 years of it always being her way she's really doubling down.

I have known this was looming for a while, my sister makes my mum drive a hour to her house to look after the baby and keeps saying get me to put DD in nursery so you can come stay the night and do the nightshift for me (she's on mat leave and her hubby does 50% of the night feeds) and I need the cover to you know work and she's on mat leave 😞😞

My mums happy to have my sisters dd on days she has my dd just as long as my sister is working and not just wanting a break feom being a parent.

I feel like I'm being gas lighted. She's now pushing for my mum to stop having DD and start having her DD as she literally will not pay for nursery fees as it's only fair "she gets her turn" and money is so tight for them 🙄

Thing is we grew up on the poverty line and I remember what it's like to really struggle so I'm not gonna sit here and say we are poor but rn I have a lot of bills that come out (don't buy a house in a housing market bubble is all I'm saying) and nursery is killing me along with a lot of student debt and other debts DD father left me with 😒

I feel like I have to justify if I go shopping for nesscary clothes for DD, get my hair done or buy anything as my sister will say see mum she's rolling in it about you getting her to put DD in nursery for more days

Has anyone successfully dealt with narisctic family member ? The only stuff online is to cut them off which my mum begs me not to do to my sister as she's "never going to be happy or contented"
And do I sound like a hideous person for every now and then just wanting to do just that.

Mums staying strong for the moment but is making mum Uber guilty and my sister want to talk about "getting the childcare issue sorted out" before she goes back to work. She got the days which mum will cover and I'm not sure what she thinks she will achieve with me.

This is starting to make me feel v low. Doesn't help that I had a late stage MC and my baby would have been born a week after my sisters baby.. and that often gets rubbed in my face saying it was probably for the best of I can't provide for my current DD 😞

Re rivalry there is a little on the internet about sublings with NPD - like this
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bridgestorecovery.com/blog/a-one-sided-rivalry-the-traumatic-effects-of-narcissistic-personality-disorder-on-siblings/amp/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201904/5-tips-coping-narcissistic-family-member%3famp

Also this but I find it a bit unrealistic because my narcissistic sibling would just escalate, escalate, escalate if I was trying to use these “gentle” methods to protect myself.

If you only have to speak to the person a couple of tumes a year it works, but not uf you meet for family occasions and have regular contact and shared friendship / family groups

[quote Geraldinethegiraffe]Re rivalry there is a little on the internet about sublings with NPD - like this
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bridgestorecovery.com/blog/a-one-sided-rivalry-the-traumatic-effects-of-narcissistic-personality-disorder-on-siblings/amp/[/quote]
That was frightening scarily accurate portray of my childhood.

Thank for this 💓

I think however unfair this may be it’s never going to be something you can win as such.

Your ds wants her child to have that 100% one on one with granny just like your dd gets because that’s fair and means her child gets the same. If your mum has both children at the same time then her child isn’t getting what yours got if you get me?

Your mother and father have made her who she is today. Your mother won’t fight your corner it’s sad but I doubt that’s going to change the only thing that can change is how you deal with it. Do you want your dd in that environment where granny won’t stop ds saying something nasty? Inferring that her child is much better? Or whatever she does.

You should get 30 free hours as a working parent when she turns 3 or as a minimum the 15 free hours.

Ive seen the sibling/grandchildren childcare situation turn nasty without a diagnosed issue between the siblings and it won’t end nicely. Your mother will lose one side of her grandchildren ultimately.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

"Mum and I are happy with the current arrangement. Please decide between you and her how your DC fits into that. I wont be making any changes"

This! It sounds like your mum is happy to have both children. Don't engage with her.

And I really think as well your exDP should do more, you have a lot on your plate.

Your mother is an enabler. Once you see this its easier to understand. She is part of the problem.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/signs-you-are-an-enabler_n_58545000e4b0390447089371
6 Signs You Yes, You Are The Enabler In A Toxic Relationship

This is for a marriage relationship but the principles remain the same.

Beware the person who sees your abuse, but excuses it or acts counter to what they say (says this is unacceptable but carries on and doesn't set boundaries to stop that behaviour).

OP the danger here is that you could become an enabler.

You are concerned that the relationship between your daughter and your mother will be affected if you stop your mother proving care. But your mother's relationship with your sister is toxic and it is always put before your daughter and this is your mother's choice to do this despite whatever your Mum says.

You are excusing your mother for the sake of your daughter - however this puts your daughter in a position which effectively may harm her.

Stop it.

Stand back. Spell it out to your mother.

Your daughter will always be always be 'good enough'. The issue is that this is made into a competition by your sister and your mother engages with it, and you too do so by extension because of your mother. Don't play the game. Instead set your own rules to play by. If your Mum doesn't want to do things on your terms then its her who has failed to be good enough for your daughter. It is up to your mother to demonstrate that she deserves a key role in your daughters life, its not up to your daughter to prove how wonderful she is to her grandmother and how she compares to her cousin. You know your daughter is 'good enough' - you say it yourself. Don't let yourself sow the seed of doubt in her mind. Reframe the situation in which your daughter is central rather than your mother (or your sister / neice). It will make everything a lot more healthy.

Your daughter is good enough. Her well being is the most important thing here - not the money nor even the relationship with your mother. Your daughter will be fine without your mother if it comes to it, because she always has you. Focus on this.

@Geraldinethegiraffe

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201904/5-tips-coping-narcissistic-family-member%3famp

Also this but I find it a bit unrealistic because my narcissistic sibling would just escalate, escalate, escalate if I was trying to use these “gentle” methods to protect myself.

If you only have to speak to the person a couple of tumes a year it works, but not uf you meet for family occasions and have regular contact and shared friendship / family groups

Yup my sister has turned up at my door at 2am because I wasn't responding to her you need to apologise to me because all I did was give you a home truth at the party re my MC

Gentle won't work gah but hopefully someone else who's reading this thread and going this "sounds familiar"may have more luck with this method !

You should just have punched your sisters lights out for that MC comment.

She’s a vile pathetic bully, and either you go to war with her bad tell her how it is, back off sis or fuck off back to your oh so big house and pay for childcare like normal people do...

Or you meekly back yourself off, recognise that your family dynamics are fucked, you will never ‘matter’ quite enough for them and just make the best of things without them.

Personally, I don’t put up with bullies. I give them as good as they get.

This sister of yours has ruined your entire life and it’s still going on. That comment would have been the last thing she ever said to me.

You can't control your mother or your sister. You can only control your actions and how you respond. The temptation is to try and 'win' and to try and 'prove' yourself somehow in a competitive dynamic. Thats the unhealthy this. You will never manage it, because its not on your terms.

Set your own boundaries and rules about your life and your daughters life and tell your mother this is how it is and she has a choice to play by this rules or to walk away.

If she doesn't she demostrates that its HER who isn't good enough for you rather than the reverse...

NONE of this is your fault, but YOU CAN CHOOSE how you deal with things

If you don’t want to put up with it, don’t.

Make some demands of your own.

From what you have written about how your sister behaves, to be honest I would worry if your daughter is safe around her. Your sister is already going to your mum's on days she has your DD on purpose to spoil the day, to take the attention away from your DD and on to her and her DD. Whether it is her narcissistic traits or jealousy either is dangerous. She is the one saying your mum can't cope with both children but then rocks up so your mum is looking after both and her. By demanding the childcare she is trying to win all round, she is finding a way to get your mum's attention and get you and your DD out of the equation. And if she is seeing your DD as an extension of you or that her child has to be more important then I would not want her left in a room alone with my child. She has hurt you in the past. Would she hurt your DD or as her DD gets older let or encourage her DD to hurt yours? She is obviously out of order with the miscarriage comment. She seems to think she is entitled to this help from your mum, as in, it all has to be equal. Even though the incomes/relationships are different, and she doesn't care about if you can afford the extra childcare, as in one breath she says you have to and in the next says you couldn't afford another child. You have good advice about grey rock etc. But if she is this determined, like hunting the job info down and your hairdressers, and heck knows what else, i would be inclined to tell her you could go to the police for advice as she is stalking you. Honestly I would find out about the free hours kids get and could you pay the extra nursery days till then for peace of mind. Then I would sell it to you mum and you could spend time with her and your DD together on dinner once a week and the odd weekend day etc. Quality time together

@harknesswitch has the right response. Any further defending your position just feeds into the drama that she's creating!

If I were your mum I'd tell you both to look after your own children and leave you to it.

@PurpleMustang

From what you have written about how your sister behaves, to be honest I would worry if your daughter is safe around her. Your sister is already going to your mum's on days she has your DD on purpose to spoil the day, to take the attention away from your DD and on to her and her DD. Whether it is her narcissistic traits or jealousy either is dangerous. She is the one saying your mum can't cope with both children but then rocks up so your mum is looking after both and her. By demanding the childcare she is trying to win all round, she is finding a way to get your mum's attention and get you and your DD out of the equation. And if she is seeing your DD as an extension of you or that her child has to be more important then I would not want her left in a room alone with my child. She has hurt you in the past. Would she hurt your DD or as her DD gets older let or encourage her DD to hurt yours? She is obviously out of order with the miscarriage comment. She seems to think she is entitled to this help from your mum, as in, it all has to be equal. Even though the incomes/relationships are different, and she doesn't care about if you can afford the extra childcare, as in one breath she says you have to and in the next says you couldn't afford another child. You have good advice about grey rock etc. But if she is this determined, like hunting the job info down and your hairdressers, and heck knows what else, i would be inclined to tell her you could go to the police for advice as she is stalking you. Honestly I would find out about the free hours kids get and could you pay the extra nursery days till then for peace of mind. Then I would sell it to you mum and you could spend time with her and your DD together on dinner once a week and the odd weekend day etc. Quality time together

^This.

OP, just to say you are not alone and not going mad. I don’t want to say much on a public thread but I can certainly relate to the mind games, inconsistency, control issues and games some people play.

I hope you have plenty of love in your life from friends and partner. Look after yourself x

What @MzHz says X 1000 and more

On a practical leaves does your my Mum only want to do 2 days per week childcare?

Your sister is demanding it because she is JEALOUS and wants her DD to be the sole centre of attention.

If your Mum only wants to do 2 days she could offer to do 1 day with just your DN and a day with both DDs when your sister returns to work. It's a compromise but it's not your Mum capitulating to her demands.

Your Mum could then visit you at weekends to get one on one time with your DD?

SIL is very jealous and controlling and it just soured so much and we just stepped away from them all in the end. NC with SIL but see PIL but we won't be pitching in to help when they are old. SIL got all the help with the DC and financially and our DC never got a look in despite us all living close by etc. They made their choices 🤷🏽‍♀️

@katy1213

If I were your mum I'd tell you both to look after your own children and leave you to it.

And me.

Nursery costs may be high but it’s a known when planning children.

My older sister has narc tendencies, has bullied my mother for years and is another 50 year old who tantrums. She wasn't always like this, seemed to start when she was about 20, so I've had 30 years of being treated like a third class citizen in my own family whilst she gets pandered to by our mother.

Luckily she doesn't have children, so my daughter isn't faced with the same competition, but I feel the need to protect her nevertheless. Over the years my mental and physical health has suffered, my relationship with my mother has been destroyed and my self-esteem is in ruins. The really sad thing is that my mother can't see it, as she's so caught up in keeping my sister happy she literally cannot compute my being anything other than happy.

My daughter was born just before Lockdown last year. My mother didn't see her til she was 5 months old. Stupidly I'd expected that, for once, I would be the centre of attention (along with my baby) as I FINALLY got a chance to show her off. Stupid, stupid me. Should have realised that my sister's status as aunt was higher than mine of mother. Every day I was told what to do and how long I could see others, as if I were late back my sister would be unhappy. The fact that I was incredibly hurt by this was neither here nor there.

I dread going back down, as I know my sister will insist on being there too and I will be expected to play by her rules. I won't, and there will be tears and fireworks, but I'm not putting myself through it again. But I can guarantee that my mother will have 'forgotten' that I had a horrendous time, despite my mentioning it in the meantime.

I have been fairly specific on the advice I need a) is what the childcare arrangement suggest unfair and how to make it fair if so ?

You need to stop and think about this. There’s no such thing as fair. DSis was a single mother and needed help with childcare as she worked evenings and nights so no childcare provisions. I did some so did my mother and the child’s grandparents. My mother never looked after my children, because I didn’t need her too. Should I have enforced child minding on her so it’s ‘fair’?

Younger sister, different situation, but she has been gifted a large deposit to get on the property ladder, me or the others didn’t. Is it fair? Should I demand the same when we are financially more settled and have a smaller mortgage? Of coarse not.

We aren’t the same. Our needs are different. That’s life.

I sort of feel sorry for your mum here, sort of.

She has pushed you away in favour of your sister all your life. You are offering an easier relationship and your mum isn't really appreciating that at all. She is prioritising the relationship that is more damaging to her which is quite sad and short-sighted.

When this all finally becomes too much for you and you pull away from both of them permanently, and you very likely will because you can only try so much before you just give up, your mother will either be under the complete control of your sister or alone. My guess is alone, as I suspect your sister won't want to engage with your mother if there's no aspect of competition with you for your mum's time and emotions.

Have you asked your mum if she imagines that your sister will care for her if your mum needs help due to future age related problems, ill health or accident and other emergencies. She won't.

I ask that because a relative of mine ran her caring children off in favour of the narcissistic one and very much lived to regret it. She needed help and did not get any. He kissed up to her exDH and stole all of the inheritance money from his siblings when ex died and disappeared off to a wonderful new life hundreds of miles away never to be seen again. She may have been happier and lived longer if the other children had still been around to help but they'd all had enough years before.

@Blueberrysquishy - I feel sorry for my mum too, which is why I've put up with it for so long. But, having spent a week in tears thanks to my sister and mum's treatment of me in respect of her, then, when I decide to stand up to my sister for once and ask her not to come over on the last day, being told not to 'as it might upset her' seemed cruel. So it's ok for me to be hurt all week but the possibility of upsetting her over one day is too much to contemplate?

@digitalnative

Also just to the person who said my therapist shouldn't have made that call. He met her because we went to family therapy as I kept being injured as a child by my sister. It's on her medical file not just be bandying around a term FYI

Narcissism cannot be diagnosed in children. That type of personality disorder is not diagnosed until like 30 iirc.

The overwhelming majority of narcissists are men. It’s a very rare trait in women. Except on Mumsnet, where everyone who has a personal conflict with a female relative labels them as a narcissist.

I’m taking your OP with a huge pinch of salt. You seem to have built a narrative in your head where you are the good girl and your sister is the bad girl. I guarantee the scenario is reversed in her head, and you are the villain.

Overall, you mostly come across as someone who’s very keen to secure your free childcare, irrespective of your sister’s wants and needs.

Exactly this, @Yellownotblue.