To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

Great if you follow said religion...hot so much if you do not. I am not Catholic and I don't want dd to be Catholic unless that is what she wants for herself so i would sacrifice better grades for not being indoctrinated into faith.

@malificent7

Great if you follow said religion...hot so much if you do not. I am not Catholic and I don't want dd to be Catholic unless that is what she wants for herself so i would sacrifice better grades for not being indoctrinated into faith.

Well I would propose atheist schools as well, which would probably be the biggest category!

I don't agree with faith schools at all. Every school should be secular and reach the same agreed RE syllabus.

I completely agree. I also think grammar schools are great so I totally go against the MN party line 😂

Religion criteria is deeply unfair on children who have no choice in the matter. To limit a child's choice of school because their parent either doesn't believe or believes in the wrong God seems monumentally unfair.

Ahahahaha.
In Northern Ireland it is illegal to refuse a child a place in school On the basis of their religion - so good Catholic schools are chocka with non RC kids and good prod schools have Catholics.
THATs the way to handle ‘faith’ schools...

But why not just have all state schools no religion? Then that doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth and it would keep sibling groups together.
The ethos and PSHE shouldn't be in keeping with the parents’ beliefs, it should be in the best interests of the children IMO.

@MrsRobinsonsHandprints

Religion criteria is deeply unfair on children who have no choice in the matter. To limit a child's choice of school because their parent either doesn't believe or believes in the wrong God seems monumentally unfair.

But that’s what happening now anyway isn’t it?

And if not religion - how should school admissions be handled in a way that doesn’t create inequality?

My problem with faith schools is that they are funded by the state yet the school can exclude state children purely on religion. If a school wishes to offer its places mainly to those of the faith, then it should be funded by the church.

@Tal45

But why not just have all state schools no religion? Then that doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth and it would keep sibling groups together. The ethos and PSHE shouldn't be in keeping with the parents’ beliefs, it should be in the best interests of the children IMO.

Because people would just send their kids to the nearest school, the posh areas would excel, then the postcode cheating would start.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

I completely agree. I also think grammar schools are great so I totally go against the MN party line 😂

Grammar schools in principle are great but as the entrance test is biased towards those who have the capability to tutor it does mean that plenty of academically able children still do not get in. (Awaits reports of how posters dc got in without any tutoring or even looking at a paper, which if they have to take verbal and non verbal is a downright lie as whilst neither are difficult the volume of questions that need to be completed in the set time means there is no time to work out the method on each question)

It is not that parents with 'intelligent' kids lie to send their children there. They are parents who are well educated themselves, value education and support their child's education, therefore, as a whole average cohort, they perform better. That's very different to intelligence.

Not really interested in debating your statement, but think that is important to get right why faith schools often perform better.

Ok, I'll bite. Admission by religion is not fair because it benefits organised, two parent families who don't work at the weekends or shifts. This favours many middle-class families. My local church secondary requires at least one adult in the house (and preferably the child too) to attend a service every week for about 2 years before admission of the child. You need a signature from the vicar and to sign a register each week. It is way easier to do this if the parents can take it in turns and have nothing else on on a Sunday morning.

I cant say I'm fond of the practice of segregating children based on their parents' religion tbh. It seems like a social bad in itself.

School admission on non faith schools is the correct way:
Kids with special needs/ in local authority care
Siblings
Distance

Religion shouldn’t come into it but since it does I have zero issue with parents playing the system- I’ve attended christenings 3 months before primary school applications are due.

Religious belief may not be related to economic status but regular church attendance most definitely is.

Many reasons but an obvious one is that if you’re in lower paid work eg retail or caring you’re more likely to be at work on a Sunday.

And if not religion - how should school admissions be handled in a way that doesn’t create inequality?

Thats a different question.

Obviously OP, the answer is to fund our state schools to make sure all kids get a decent education, not have wealthier parents funnel their kids off to better, monied choices.

Faith schools are ridiculous in this day and age. Any state funded school should be secular. You want a particular faith school? Go private.

I don't agree with your idea. I live in an area where 80% of the schools are religious schools. By that we would be forced to move houses to get close to a school that would accept us and so creating the very problem you are claiming to avoid - parents moving to get into certain schools.

There shouldn’t be religious schools. We don’t segregate in terms of religion in any other part of life e.g ‘catholics only hospital’ so why schools? I would rather my child learned alongside people if different faiths rather than just her own.

If church schools want to choose on the basis of faith then all public money should be pulled from them. I don’t think public schools should have charity stair either.

I loathe faith schools. My DD has to go to a catholic school. I am a firm atheist and did not cheat the system as you say, but that was the school we got a place at due to catchment.

I think it is offensive that they spend so much time 'learning' made up stories and that taxpayers fund it. I hate it so much I have petitioned so she doesn't have to take part in RE and moving to a different are so my DS and baby don't have to go through the same.

It is the best school in our area academically and she is best in class but I find that other things are much more important and we don't fit in with the other families either due to our lack of faith.

@Dailywalk

There shouldn’t be religious schools. We don’t segregate in terms of religion in any other part of life e.g ‘catholics only hospital’ so why schools? I would rather my child learned alongside people if different faiths rather than just her own.

Because all alternative admission systems would favour children from wealthier backgrounds. Religion is a random criteria that doesn’t denote intelligence or wealth.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

My problem with faith schools is that they are funded by the state yet the school can exclude state children purely on religion. If a school wishes to offer its places mainly to those of the faith, then it should be funded by the church.

But the state is funded by taxpayers of all religions and none. That's a good argument that faith schools should be in proportion to the numbers of adherents of that faith, but I don't see it's an argument against them altogether.