To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

Parents cheat because they are stuck with the system in their area unless they can afford to move or go private.

Religion is as discriminatory as house price. Single people who work Sundays or don't know how early a baptism is needed can't meet the criteria so you inevitably end up with pushy middle class types who've done their research.

Members of the most economically disadvantaged groups are far more likely to be people of colour.

Maybe, but this isn't much to do with religion and is everything to do with institutionalised racism and lack of social mobility.

Do people think all faith schools are all white?. I get you dont get diversity in Jewish or maybe Muslim schools but Christian schools are diverse where the surrounding community is diverse.

If no one likes Faith Schools then why are they so over subscribed with parents falling over themselves to get their children into one?

Because selection by any criteria generally leads to improved outcomes, and this quickly becomes self-fulfilling. It's really not complicated, and very well evidenced.

But why does that matter? It’s not like it would be the parents wealth funding the school.

Parents paying privately for school trips, tutoring, Special Needs assessments etc obviously helps the school zoom ahead and attract similar types.
Schools where there's high levels of poverty, FSM are probably funding basics that "rich" schools don't have to like stationery, breakfasts etc (FSM at our school funds break or lunch not both)

It’s all very well people on here saying how awful faith schools are, how they’re indoctrinating etc

But faith schools being good/bad wasn’t actually my post - my post was about whether it is better as a selection criteria.

So to argue against me you will need to have a better idea of what criteria can be used to create a fairer system.

@multivac

If no one likes Faith Schools then why are they so over subscribed with parents falling over themselves to get their children into one?

Because selection by any criteria generally leads to improved outcomes, and this quickly becomes self-fulfilling. It's really not complicated, and very well evidenced.

Because of other parents falling over themselves to get their kids into it - it’s the cheats that make the schools desirable.

Maybe, but this isn't much to do with religion and is everything to do with institutionalised racism and lack of social mobility.
Absolutely, but do you think directly segregating children based on religion (which indirectly results in an increase in segregation by race and class) is more likely to increase or decrease the effects of institutional racism?

Think about technology and the pandemic. Kids without a computer or other technology to get live lessons have been left to flounder. Our school organized loans but no idea of the machines were decent spec or if everyone who needed one was allocated a single or laptop

@cannotchange

Speaking from experience, faith schools -especially Catholic schools are corrupt, in terms of both recruitment and ethos. Catholicism is always used as a veneer to dismiss bad behaviour etc - eg 'there couldn't possibly any serious bullying in this school as all children follow a Christian ethos and are beautifully behaved

This absolutely. I was shocked and had been RC all my life. I've never seen grown adults behave in such a way. Bullying between staff, bullying of the kids, clergy telling frightening stories to the kids to get them to behave. Disgusting. Any complaints were always shut down, 'doesn't happen here, we're catholic'

@Wondermule

It’s all very well people on here saying how awful faith schools are, how they’re indoctrinating etc

But faith schools being good/bad wasn’t actually my post - my post was about whether it is better as a selection criteria.

So to argue against me you will need to have a better idea of what criteria can be used to create a fairer system.

The title starts with "Faith Schools are Great"

Postcode is a fairer (not fair) system in the case of faith schools as poorer families are the ones who are less likely to know how to apply successfully. This leads to them being more likely to having to pay for their child to have to travel to school.

Not having supplementary forms etc would also probably help make things fairer (I'm assuming that some applicants are penalized for not filling one in)

The Catholic schools where I live are dire, because they're all on council estates and no-one is fighting to get into them!

Actually, sometimes they give poorer people a chance to get into a good school through dedication to church attendance rather than high rents/high house prices. The most unfair thing is distance really if you have a small school surrounded by just expensive houses, that become more and more expensive because of the school. The whole school system in this country is unfair and there is so much Angst about it when you compare it to other countries.

I feel very strongly that in this day and age discriminating the standard of a child's education based on religion is fundamentally wrong. In my area, 9 out of 10 of the top state secondaries are Catholic. How is it fair that a child's religion dictates their educational chances in life?

Not discriminating! *detetmining

Because of other parents falling over themselves to get their kids into it - it’s the cheats that make the schools desirable.

How do you evidence authentic faith?

"So to argue against me you will need to have a better idea of what criteria can be used to create a fairer system".

Distance from school seems fine to me - BUT all comprehensives should be banded comprehensives - so every school takes a fair proportion of achievers across 3 or 5 ability bands. This would ensure the critical mass of high achievers that aspirational parents want, ensure that every school has the resources and class sizes to support those learning at slower paces. The critical mass of high achievers would stop the spiral of decline that hits schools when the stats go down and stop the polarisation between 'sought after' and 'sink'. All schools would have the critical mass needed to support Triple Science, more than one MFL etc.

Bands to be ascertained by KS2 SATS and maybe a CAT test, so every child just takes it as part of their normal school life - not taken to banding tests out of school by parents.

Subjects to be set, so that kids who develop ability as they mature can move from one set / stream to another.

State funded Grammars to be abolished along with Faith.

For example I feel single sex secondary schools are just as unfair, you are also discriminating and in our area there are loads of single sex schools and with this whole questioning of gender they are hardly 21st century either and don’t really exist in most of Europe. So honing in on just faith schools does not make sense. The whole education system here is unfair and confusing. Because it is so complex it makes it harder for those not in the know, not that well educated themselves or whose lives are just not that predictable.

@hamper555

I feel very strongly that in this day and age discriminating the standard of a child's education based on religion is fundamentally wrong. In my area, 9 out of 10 of the top state secondaries are Catholic. How is it fair that a child's religion dictates their educational chances in life?

Do you live in the UK? where I live there is one secondary in the nearest town and 3 in the nearest city, none of them Catholic. I have googled Catholic secondary and there are are two - one is 12 miles and the other 55 miles. Hi have lived in a few different cities in the UK and have never ever heard of 9 out of 10 secondary schools being Catholic. I realise anyone can make up what they want on the internet, but I really have no secondary Catholic schools anywhere near me (I live in the south) and I think that's the norm.

@muddywalks Surrey!!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/real-schools-guide-2020-surrey-18565093.amp

Actually - it might be 8/10

@hamper555

I feel very strongly that in this day and age discriminating the standard of a child's education based on religion is fundamentally wrong. In my area, 9 out of 10 of the top state secondaries are Catholic. How is it fair that a child's religion dictates their educational chances in life?

But that’s my point hamper - they’re the top schools because of admissions cheats making them more desirable. It’s not because Catholics are inherently more intelligent. If nobody fiddled the system, the school wouldn’t be crammed to the rafters with kids that’s aren’t really Catholics but have been pushed in there by their education obsessed parents.

I don’t think many people have understood my first post at all, they’re just seeing RELIGION = GOOD

Why do you think that religion is "random"?

And why do you think it a good idea for children to be segregated along religious lines?

In England, there are many more CofE and Catholic schools than Muslim or Sikh schools. Where should the Muslims and Sikhs go to school, or should they have to travel miles to their matching faith school?

What about other Christian denominations which also don't have their own schools?

Aren't schools in Scotland all catchment schools? So the social mobility thing that you said would be disastrous must be happening there?

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

"So to argue against me you will need to have a better idea of what criteria can be used to create a fairer system".

Distance from school seems fine to me - BUT all comprehensives should be banded comprehensives - so every school takes a fair proportion of achievers across 3 or 5 ability bands. This would ensure the critical mass of high achievers that aspirational parents want, ensure that every school has the resources and class sizes to support those learning at slower paces. The critical mass of high achievers would stop the spiral of decline that hits schools when the stats go down and stop the polarisation between 'sought after' and 'sink'. All schools would have the critical mass needed to support Triple Science, more than one MFL etc.

Bands to be ascertained by KS2 SATS and maybe a CAT test, so every child just takes it as part of their normal school life - not taken to banding tests out of school by parents.

Subjects to be set, so that kids who develop ability as they mature can move from one set / stream to another.

State funded Grammars to be abolished along with Faith.

It sounds reasonable enough but then you would get parents tutoring the kids for any kind of ability assessments etc - same issue

@Schoolchoicesucks

Why do you think that religion is "random"?

And why do you think it a good idea for children to be segregated along religious lines?

In England, there are many more CofE and Catholic schools than Muslim or Sikh schools. Where should the Muslims and Sikhs go to school, or should they have to travel miles to their matching faith school?

What about other Christian denominations which also don't have their own schools?

Aren't schools in Scotland all catchment schools? So the social mobility thing that you said would be disastrous must be happening there?

It wouldn’t be a hard and fast rule - e.g. if you lived more than 30 mins from your faith school you should have the right to a place at the nearest one instead. But I think it is a better guide in terms of social mobility