To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

@MrsRobinsonsHandprints mmm but it doesn't mean these children then excel in life. It's quite nice (possibly) to be encased in a nerdish bubble and depending on the career path, it's perfect for some, but not necessarily for everyone. I've known comp kids from crappy areas achieve stellar careers due to EQ.

This all just smacks of thinly-veiled racism to be honest - a way to preserve Christian wealth and further marginalize people of other faiths (particularly those who are far less likely to be white).

I can see religious schools exclude people, and that it's not fair. But is this any better than exclusion by house price? Isn't it Camden school for girls that is 'fully comprehensive' where you have to live in a £2m house?

That's out of reach for the vast majority of the population.

@Zevia

This all just smacks of thinly-veiled racism to be honest - a way to preserve Christian wealth and further marginalize people of other faiths (particularly those who are far less likely to be white).

😂😂😂 what on earth are you talking about

That’s my thinking - it would preserve diversity and equality of opportunity.

No - it would do the opposite. Segregation of children based on religion and ethnicity does not promote diversity. And the way to encourage equality of opportunity is to provide extra resources for those schools that take in children with extra needs - whether they are due to being recent immigrants, from deprived back grounds, or learning disabilities. To an extent this already happens due to pupil premium money, which allows schools to pay for extra staff or provide extra curricular activities for children whose parents struggle to provide them.

You couldn't have a lottery based on a fixed geographical distance either. A 5 mile radius in a city could encompass loads of schools, in other places only one, or in our case, none. There would have to be some consideration of the number and type of schools available, transport options etc and it would get very messy.
You could also potentially end up with more people in schools they didn't want than if you allowed people to express a preference. There are areas where the vast majority of people get what they want under the current system. It was something like 97% given first preference and >99% given one of their 3 preferences in our county last time I looked. I doubt a lottery would achieve that.

In the US faith schools are private (fee-paying). Some restrict admissions to children of families who practice the faith while others admit any children whose families agree that their child will be taught elements of that faith.
All my children and all my grandchildren have attended faith schools through their whole education. Not the same school, but all were Protestant Christian.
The advantage in my mind is what the children are NOT taught. They are not taught the modern "sex is just a state of mind and anything goes 'wokeness'" that contradicts the Biblical beliefs we accept. I realize that currently anyone who believes the Bible is considered a racist, a bigot, or just stupid -- whereas anyone who believes a certain actress who is an anti-vaxxer and sells goop is modern and enlightened. That's okay. We are willing to endure the prejudice and the insults. Our faith sustains us.

Faith schools are bullshit and entirely unnecessary.

We are forced to send our son to one as literally EVERY primary school in every village around here is a Christian school. Annoying.

If they had the gall to try to make us go to Church to get in I would lose my shit!!!

what on earth are you talking about

For about the 5th time - there is massive economic inequality between people of different faiths in the UK.

Members of the most economically disadvantaged groups are far more likely to be people of colour.

Why further entrench that?

www.brin.ac.uk/economic-inequality-and-religion/

Faith schools are bullshit for all sorts of reasons.

If people want to brainwash their kids they should do it without public money being involved.

I can see religious schools exclude people, and that it's not fair. But is this any better than exclusion by house price? Isn't it Camden school for girls that is 'fully comprehensive' where you have to live in a £2m house? That's out of reach for the vast majority of the population.

Exclusion by house price doesn't matter if the schools are good in all areas. Most people don't own a £2 million house and most children do perfectly fine in state schools. Not getting to go to school with a tiny minority of super rich people is not the same as being forced to go to school only with people from your own religion and ethnicity.

Because all alternative admission systems would favour children from wealthier backgrounds. Religion is a random criteria that doesn’t denote intelligence or wealth.

Religion is NOT a random criteria. And even if it were, and randomness is desirable in the way you think it is (I’m not convinced) why not make it truly random? Pick schools on shoe size or birthday or letter of the alphabet. But DON’T give a select few schools extra funding because they teach a certain faith: that is very unequal.

Not to mention that my personal view is that certain religious teachings are at best nasty and at worst tantamount to child abuse (you’re going to hell if you’re gay/ a different faith / unbaptised).

@GeorgiaGirl52

In the US faith schools are private (fee-paying). Some restrict admissions to children of families who practice the faith while others admit any children whose families agree that their child will be taught elements of that faith. All my children and all my grandchildren have attended faith schools through their whole education. Not the same school, but all were Protestant Christian. The advantage in my mind is what the children are NOT taught. They are not taught the modern "sex is just a state of mind and anything goes 'wokeness'" that contradicts the Biblical beliefs we accept. I realize that currently anyone who believes the Bible is considered a racist, a bigot, or just stupid -- whereas anyone who believes a certain actress who is an anti-vaxxer and sells goop is modern and enlightened. That's okay. We are willing to endure the prejudice and the insults. Our faith sustains us.

Yep, I suspect Christian beliefs won’t seem so ridiculous when people realise they’re the only large institution standing up for biology...

I think you should keep your religion out of state schools.

If you want your child indoctrinated in your faith, do it out of school hours.

Remember that the same desire to separate kids out by religion creates schools where the girls sit at the back; where girls schools can redact NC texts.

It is a slippery slope.

I strongly object to my taxes paying for others to indoctrinate their children in state schools.

I think if you want a religious education for your child you should have to pay for it, religious segregation does not belong in state funded schools.

Zevia

This all just smacks of thinly-veiled racism to be honest - a way to preserve Christian wealth and further marginalize people of other faiths (particularly those who are far less likely to be white).“

Why? We’re equally suspicious of all religions, whoever their constituents?

But I just wanted my kids to got to their local school. The one in the village that I live in so I could walk them to school. This is better for them in terms of living in a community and better for the environment.

So I will pretend to be whatever religion it is. As it happens it was c of e so we went to church twice a month to get it. Had it been catholic I would have got them baptized. Had it been non religious that would have been fine too.

As far as I am concerned if they are funded by the tax payer They don’t get to pick and choose who they want

Religious schools should be private.

Some schools operate admissions on a lottery basis which means that religion or postcode can't be used as an advantage.

@Carycy

But I just wanted my kids to got to their local school. The one in the village that I live in so I could walk them to school. This is better for them in terms of living in a community and better for the environment.

So I will pretend to be whatever religion it is. As it happens it was c of e so we went to church twice a month to get it. Had it been catholic I would have got them baptized. Had it been non religious that would have been fine too.

As far as I am concerned if they are funded by the tax payer They don’t get to pick and choose who they want

I can’t imagine a village was teeming with enough committed Christians to make it oversubscribed to the point you had to cheat?

@Miljea

I think you should keep your religion out of state schools.

If you want your child indoctrinated in your faith, do it out of school hours.

Remember that the same desire to separate kids out by religion creates schools where the girls sit at the back; where girls schools can redact NC texts.

It is a slippery slope.

I strongly object to my taxes paying for others to indoctrinate their children in state schools.

So how should admissions be dealt with in a way that is fair and equal?

If no one likes Faith Schools then why are they so over subscribed with parents falling over themselves to get their children into one? . My DS went to three different primary schools, the best one by far was the Catholic one - we are not Catholic but they had a vacancy and we were very happy for him to go there and attend the Catholic services -which were very low key, no expectation to take communion etc. But of all the schools he went to they were the most welcoming.

I find it's only on Mumsnet that people froth over faith schools, in RL people are desperate to get their child to play Mary or Joseph in the Nativity Play and ensure it is videoed.

Why? We’re equally suspicious of all religions, whoever their constituents?
I dont understand what you mean by your second question but, for about the 6th time, the average Christian family in the UK is far wealthier than the average Muslim family. Ovviously Christians in the UK are also far more likely to be white.

I am highly, highly doubtful that segregating children who are more likely to be rich and white, from children who are far more likely to be poor and brown, would reverse the current wealth gap.

@Zevia

Why? We’re equally suspicious of all religions, whoever their constituents? I dont understand what you mean by your second question but, for about the 6th time, the average Christian family in the UK is far wealthier than the average Muslim family. Ovviously Christians in the UK are also far more likely to be white.

I am highly, highly doubtful that segregating children who are more likely to be rich and white, from children who are far more likely to be poor and brown, would reverse the current wealth gap.

But why does that matter? It’s not like it would be the parents wealth funding the school.

@Ragwort

If no one likes Faith Schools then why are they so over subscribed with parents falling over themselves to get their children into one? . My DS went to three different primary schools, the best one by far was the Catholic one - we are not Catholic but they had a vacancy and we were very happy for him to go there and attend the Catholic services -which were very low key, no expectation to take communion etc. But of all the schools he went to they were the most welcoming.

I find it's only on Mumsnet that people froth over faith schools, in RL people are desperate to get their child to play Mary or Joseph in the Nativity Play and ensure it is videoed.

Because they like to simultaneously be outraged by religion whilst using it to their own advantage

I used to work in a Catholic school. The indoctrination was appalling. It was not good for gay pupils and those who got pregnant were essentially guilted into having the baby. I found it incredibly upsetting and was relieved when I left.
Im atheist but I don't want my children to only mix with kids of other atheists. I want diversity of thought and for indoctrination to be kept out of school.
Not to mention that I think every child should be able to go to a good local school, not have to schlep halfway across the county for one that best meets their parents' beliefs.