To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

I really should’ve said in my OP - I would also propose atheist schools, which is where I assume the majority of kids would go.

It is not that parents with 'intelligent' kids lie to send their children there. They are parents who are well educated themselves, value education and support their child's education

Agree, but I also think these are the parents schools court. I've been watching a local school change its admission policy, they are trying to prioritise those parents who actively support their child's education. Who can blame them when the system is geared towards exam results.

Well I would propose atheist schools as well, which would probably be the biggest category!

No, it's better that we're all educated together. That way we learn about each other.

And the person who said they "lied" on the other thread was applying to a CE school, not a Catholic one. You just didn't read their post properly. In many areas there are only CE schools and nothing else. If you don't conform you would have to travel a very long way to find a school.

I think Superintendent Chalmers said it best.

"A prayer! A prayer in a public school! God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organized religion!"

OP and @JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows agree 100%

@Buccanarab

I think Superintendent Chalmers said it best.

"A prayer! A prayer in a public school! God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organized religion!"

😆 that’s a good one actually!

So how should admissions be filtered?

Religion is a random criteria that doesn’t denote intelligence or wealth

Oh op, I thought this was an interesting thread but then you throw this out. Religion is not a random criteria it is wrapped up in social and economic factors.

I do not think any tax funded, state provided facility should be available only to people of one religion.

Can you imagine if there were Catholic-only hospitals? Or Muslim-only fire services? C of E motorways?

Outrageous in this day and age to have schools that discriminate on the basis of religion. Anywhere else isn’t allowed to and yet here we have a state funded facility doing so.

As you say OP these schools only perform better due to the sharp-elbowed who work the system. Not because being a catholic (let’s say) school makes it a better school per se. So on what basis can you say religion based education is a good thing?

Speaking from experience, faith schools -especially Catholic schools are corrupt, in terms of both recruitment and ethos. Catholicism is always used as a veneer to dismiss bad behaviour etc - eg 'there couldn't possibly any serious bullying in this school as all children follow a Christian ethos and are beautifully behaved

Personally I would rather kids just went to their local school. It would mean kids knowing friends in their own neighbourhoods. It would also mean less traffic on the road as most people would live within walking distance of their school.
Schools in poorer areas would need additional funding.

Religion has no place in a school. I'm
Actually shocked that it's still allowed.

Religion is a random criteria that doesn’t denote intelligence or wealth.

That simply isnt true with regards to wealth. The economic equality in the UK, between people of different faiths, is stark.

www.brin.ac.uk/economic-inequality-and-religion/

So how should admissions be filtered

Medical/care need, then sibling priority then distance seems pretty sensible. Which is what most non faith schools do.

@Dailywalk

Personally I would rather kids just went to their local school. It would mean kids knowing friends in their own neighbourhoods. It would also mean less traffic on the road as most people would live within walking distance of their school. Schools in poorer areas would need additional funding.

But this would be horrific for social mobility and would encourage postcode cheating.

You think faith schools encourage social mobility?? And don’t involve cheating??

Hahahaha

I hate the idea of faith schools. Why should tax payers money prop up religious ideology? I think the French have this dead right - I don’t think state education should involve religion at all. The admissions system is a joke but it’s just part of a much wider problem. YABU.

@minipie

I do not think any tax funded, state provided facility should be available only to people of one religion.

Can you imagine if there were Catholic-only hospitals? Or Muslim-only fire services? C of E motorways?

Outrageous in this day and age to have schools that discriminate on the basis of religion. Anywhere else isn’t allowed to and yet here we have a state funded facility doing so.

As you say OP these schools only perform better due to the sharp-elbowed who work the system. Not because being a catholic (let’s say) school makes it a better school per se. So on what basis can you say religion based education is a good thing?

I’m not. I’m saying it simply happens to be a better way of filtering pupils than any other, because it’s random and would result in more social mobility than using postcodes etc.

I’m not saying faith schools are a good idea because religion is great. I’m saying it’s just a good way of creating equality if people stopped cheating the system.

@minipie

You think faith schools encourage social mobility?? And don’t involve cheating??

Hahahaha

My point is if the cheating stopped they would... you’ve misunderstood entirely...

No - terrible idea. Schools should be open to all.

Private faith schools, fine. Anything funded by the taxpayer shouldn't be able to discriminate who uses its services on the basis of religion.

@Musmerian

No - terrible idea. Schools should be open to all.

So open to postcode cheating and awful social mobility because better schools will always be in the posh areas?

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea

Yeah, nothing like a bit of religious segregation. Great idea!

Well I would propose atheist schools as well

How will you prove atheism? Will you ban anyone who goes to church?

Crikey I was putting too much faith in the reading skills of mumsnet users before posting this!

I am NOT saying faith schools are good because religion is good.

I’m saying religion is a better way of filtering admissions because it is a ‘random’ marker that doesn’t denote wealth, intelligence or class. This creating a more equal school.

@SoupDragon

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea

Yeah, nothing like a bit of religious segregation. Great idea!

Well I would propose atheist schools as well

How will you prove atheism? Will you ban anyone who goes to church?

Oooh that would be interesting, a kind of reverse cheating.

I've already posted that there currently exists wide economic disparity among adherents to different religions. Why do you think segregating schools would reverse that, rather than exacerbating it?