To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

Publicly funded schools should be secular, full stop.

@minipie

So how should admissions be filtered

Medical/care need, then sibling priority then distance seems pretty sensible. Which is what most non faith schools do.

I think siblings should only count if they still live in the catchment area when subsequent children apply. This prevents people gaming the system in a different way.

Why segregate children? Much better for children to mix with a whole range of children.

@Becles good thinking. I agree with that.

I’m saying religion is a better way of filtering admissions because it is a ‘random’ marker that doesn’t denote wealth, intelligence or class.
And I'm saying that this is objectively false in the UK.

You can argue that pretty much every admissions system is unfair.
Religion based admission relies on parents knowing the system
Catchment areas can create artificial boundaries between areas
Distance can discriminate against those who live near no schools (black holes)
Sibling priority means that families can live miles away and still get into schools while local children miss out
Lottery is too random

On the other hand, the same criteria can be said to be fair...
Religious schools are connected to their community
Catchment areas can eliminate black holes
Distance means it's local children in local schools
Lottery is random
Sibling priority keeps families together.

In short... There's no completely fair system

@IsThePopeCatholic

Why segregate children? Much better for children to mix with a whole range of children.

Because otherwise they will be filtered by location (class/wealth) or intelligence and then the schools would be less equal.

Faith schools are not full of one faith. They are able to admit a proportion of pupils on faith, as well as the usual LEA criteria.

We need to work out how we fund property etc purchases before we can remove the right of religious bodies to have a proportion of pupils in schools they pay towards.

But this would be horrific for social mobility and would encourage postcode cheating.

Haha Schrodingers Postcode? Where simultaneously you try and cheat your way out of your local school....that would be so much more inclusively representative in all socio-economic directions if people didn't try and cheat their way out?

State funded Faith schools are just wrong in principle.
The state has no business funding people's religious choices.
The state has no business funding specific religious ethos's.
The state has no business funding schools that are not accessible to local citizens simply because of religious belief.
The state has no business giving people of religious belief a choice of more schools - the faith school AND the community school, just because they are religious.

If I was religious I would not want my child segregated from other faiths, from people of no faith, and I would want them to develop ethics and morals based on collective debate and understanding.

People who attend church to get a faith school place (funded by their taxes) aren't cheating anyway. The criteria is attendance. that's what they do: attend. Until God strikes down non-believers as they fill in the Admissions form you cannot know what goes on in people's minds.

We are a church school. Religion doesn't appear in our admissions criteria at all. It would be against our faith to discriminate against those that are NOT of our faith!

Yes, it may be 'fair' in that it doesn't discriminate based on wealth etc but it contributes to segregation.
Also I thought that the whole point of faith-based schools were that they were funded by the community. More money for facilities etc because of active parental involvement, and for those who want their children to grow up close to their culture.
Having state-funded faith schools is akin to indoctrination if as pp pointed out they're the only schools for miles.
Would people be happy with Hindu,Muslim etc state-funded schools...?

@lurch3r I’m a disorganised single parent and my dds go to a religious school. Many dont require that much attendance

Also if said faith schools are 'better' because of money put in by the adhrents of a religion - it isn't unfair to restrict intake - their money they can do what they like.
The government should be ensuring that 'normal' schools are up to standard

@Nomorepies

YANBU but how do they cheat? Our faith school asked us to fill in a form in addition to the council application and it asked for details of your local church and baptism details. I think they want to see the certificate so how do people lie about this?!

They attend church for precisely 1 year (or whatever the criteria specified), have a shotgun baptism, then never go back after their kids get a place.

@WhoStoleMyCheese - why would people not be happy with Muslim or Hindu state funded schools? My children go to a state funded religious school from a non Christian religion.

@WhoStoleMyCheese

Also if said faith schools are 'better' because of money put in by the adhrents of a religion - it isn't unfair to restrict intake - their money they can do what they like. The government should be ensuring that 'normal' schools are up to standard

Quite. If the Catholic Church withdrew the free land and buildings it supplies to be used as schools, the education system would lose tens of millions it can’t afford.

Atheist schools would be an even worse idea, are you going to kick kids out if they or a parent are courght praying? Unless you're excluding people who follow religion (which would be discrimination) your system is non religious families have to go to school A, but religious families can choose between schools A&B, whichever is better (which is kind of what happens now).

If you're objective is randomized admissions, why not just do that? Siblings would go to wherever the oldest sibling was sent, then everyone else in a hat, and a representative from each school in the town takes turns to pull names out until all their places are full. You would have to set up a school bus program, but would achieve social mixing. Or better yet, fund schools properly so that all children receive a good education.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@WhoStoleMyCheese - why would people not be happy with Muslim or Hindu state funded schools? My children go to a state funded religious school from a non Christian religion.[/quote]
Well, I would be happy with them, dunno about others.

Median total wealth in £ by religion:

Christian households 223,000
Jewish households 422,000
Muslim households 42,000
Hindu households 206,000
Sikh households 229,000
Other religions 161,000
No religion 138,000

of course religion is a marker of wealth and class.

@ForeverBubblegum

Atheist schools would be an even worse idea, are you going to kick kids out if they or a parent are courght praying? Unless you're excluding people who follow religion (which would be discrimination) your system is non religious families have to go to school A, but religious families can choose between schools A&B, whichever is better (which is kind of what happens now).

If you're objective is randomized admissions, why not just do that? Siblings would go to wherever the oldest sibling was sent, then everyone else in a hat, and a representative from each school in the town takes turns to pull names out until all their places are full. You would have to set up a school bus program, but would achieve social mixing. Or better yet, fund schools properly so that all children receive a good education.

Well they don’t kick kids out when they stop attending church the moment they get a place at the school, so I’m guessing no. It wouldn’t be a perfect system, but I think it would be better.

Randomised would be good actually, maybe that’s the way forward.

But the state is funded by taxpayers of all religions and none. That's a good argument that faith schools should be in proportion to the numbers of adherents of that faith, but I don't see it's an argument against them altogether

We dont segregate healthcare, policing, fire safety on religion. Why education?

We will look back on state funded religious schools as a means of indoctrination.

Admission by religion is not fair because it benefits organised, two parent families who don't work at the weekends or shifts.

I agree with this. I don't think religion is a "random marker" insofar as it applies to schools, if you need to shag the vicar and split the atom to demonstrate your faith.

(FWIW, in some areas in London and I suspect elsewhere the CoE schools came on in leaps and bounds in the early noughties because of all the young Polish families suddenly in the UK. Again, not much to do with religion; lots, imo, to do with immigrant families from particular backgrounds valuing education very highly.)

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

But the state is funded by taxpayers of all religions and none. That's a good argument that faith schools should be in proportion to the numbers of adherents of that faith, but I don't see it's an argument against them altogether

We dont segregate healthcare, policing, fire safety on religion. Why education?

We will look back on state funded religious schools as a means of indoctrination.

Because otherwise it would be segregated by class and wealth aka postcode

Although one poster just suggested randomized lottery which I think could be an excellent idea

@Wondermule I looked it up as I was curious and there are state funded schools of many religions including Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Jewish.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/maintained-faith-schools/maintained-faith-schools