To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

[AStudyinPink]

And also, I object to the phrase ‘reasonably minded’ in this context. Biological sex and it’s immutability are proven realities. Gender as an innate characteristic trumping sex is a claim put forward by a group of people in the last few years who demand change. It is not ‘unreasonably minded’ to say, ‘Dress however you like, call yourself whatever you like, use whatever pronouns you like, but female-only spaces are for members of the female sex.’ At all.

[Sometimesonly]

Really I think we had that situation and the trans activists ruined it. I have shared bathrooms with transwomen without any problems because it was understood that I still had the right to object on the basis of my sex rights if I felt threatened . Now TRAs have made it clear that sex does not count, gender is everything and we just have to suck it up. I don't we can now get back to where we were before, that trust is gone. I feel sorry for genuine transwomen who really just want to pass and live their lives in peace but if there's one thing that this whole situation has taught me it's that there are plenty of males who have zero respect for women and I'm not going to roll over and give up my rights when there has been no consideration to the consequences for women and girls.

[Sheleg]

The opportunity for reasonable debate passed when the death and rape threats started.

I have been doxxed because i liked a gender critical tweet. I have been threatened with violence. In no other political argument has this been the case.

[guinnessguzzler]

I genuinely don't understand why it would be a good solution for someone who is non-binary to use the women's toilets or other facilities? Surely the only solution for non-binary people is a third space, if the definition is someone who doesn't fit into the binary male / female? If someone was born / assigned male at birth and identifies as non-binary, how does shoving them into the women's help?

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Perhaps because you urinate and menstruate with your body not your identity.

Non binary people who are female will need the tampon dispenser, the sanitary bin , and if they aren't disabled then taking the very limited facilities available fir disabled people is wrong.

Using a toilet with urinals and no waste disposal isn't going to work with a female body regardless of how you identify.

[Sometimesonly]

I must admit out of all the various definitions I have read non-binary makes the least sense - either nobody is non-binary or everybody is non-binary - in any case, it doesn't change your sex. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[AStudyinPink]

I must admit out of all the various definitions I have read non-binary makes the least sense - either nobody is non-binary or everybody is non-binary - in any case, it doesn't change your sex. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You’re not wrong. Sex is definitely binary. If people subscribe to a model where there is a spectrum of ‘gender identities’, they can call themselves non-binary if they wish, but they remain either male or female.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

According to the BBC there are 100 gender identities.

There are toilets for them though.

How does one pick what identities are important enough to he granted facilities and what ones aren't?

If those that don't have one represented have to use on if the others then why can't others do the same? they aren't expected to do anything different to anyone else

[jeaux90]

No. A males performance of femininity is not more important that the consent, boundaries and safety of me and my daughter.

It's called safeguarding

[Whatdidisay]

A large % of trans identified prisoners are in prison for sexual or violent offences. Are you saying we should open Women's safe spaces to these men when they are released? If not how do you propose to to monitor who is or is not a threat to girls?

[HighHeelBoots]

contrmary
What revolting views you hold. And how ignorant
I suggest you do some reading and learn about the majority of women who end up in prison
And who is going to scare the rapists in your prison? It seems they would be getting a reward of easy pickings

[AStudyinPink]

But I honestly couldn't give two fucks whether a transwoman rapist is housed in a women's prison. Prison is meant to be scary, threatening, somewhere horrible that you'd never want to end up in. Filling it up with male sex offenders who claim they are women sounds like it would help get the message across.

[wellthatsunusual]

Whatever your view on the matter of men invading women's spaces, this isn't the answer because it is by definition saying trans people are still the same gender they were born in.

Well it's not, and you know it's not. Since toilets aren't based on gender but on sex. And they definitely are the sex they were born as.

[FOJN]

BTW I wish people would stop throwing prisons into the mix. I totally get why we don't want self-declared transwomen coming into our toilets or our daughter's changing room at school. But I honestly couldn't give two fucks whether a transwoman rapist is housed in a women's prison. Prison is meant to be scary, threatening, somewhere horrible that you'd never want to end up in. Filling it up with male sex offenders who claim they are women sounds like it would help get the message across.

Your views are disgusting.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Well least someone is honest. The policies would never have come about in the first place of those involved didn't feel the same way. First poster to have had the guts to say what many other people are thinking

[AStudyinPink]

this isn't the answer because it is by definition saying trans people are still the same gender they were born in.

Isn’t this exactly what they claim anyway?

[AStudyinPink]

Also, I don’t care what women in prisons have or haven’t done. To be held in sex-segregated groups is a basic right. We don’t get to abuse prisoners just because they broke the law.

[QueenoftheAir]

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

Problem here is that
a) you might know they're lovely & not mind sharing intimate spaces where you're vulnerable. Other women may not think the same way. You can't take away their right, which is a legal right, protected by the Equalities Act.

b) no-one comes with a totally truthful sign on their head, saying "lovely" or "rapist." Statistically & historically, girls & women are at risk from boys & men. We legislate & regulate for these broad trends in populations, not individual "lovely" people.

[Lovelydaybut]

@NiceGerbil

Pukka how do you feel about women who don't want self ID across the board for all single sex stuff being compared to racists?

Because that happens constantly.

I have seen this said on numerous occasions

[QueenoftheAir]

It's like saying surely there must be a BAME group willing to do some brainstorming with racists about how they can be more respectful.

And asking the BAME people to be 'respectful' and 'reasonable' to the racists.

[MissingLinker]

But I honestly couldn't give two fucks whether a transwoman rapist is housed in a women's prison. Prison is meant to be scary, threatening, somewhere horrible that you'd never want to end up in. Filling it up with male sex offenders who claim they are women sounds like it would help get the message across.

Thankfully, whether you give a fuck or not is neither here nor there. Out of interest, though, how serious a crime would a woman have to commit before rape should be accepted as a punitive measure?

[Simarilion]

No. Women = adult human females. There are now so many different gender identities that the concept of gender has become meaningless. How is 'trans'defined? A male in a dress or a female in jeans? It's meaningless. Biological sex is the only indicator that matters & we should scrap the GRA & stop measuring gender. Trans males can sort out their own safe spaces if they feel threatened by other males. Women's spaces are for females only. Any other approach can and will be harmful to females, as it compromises their privacy and dignity, and helps predatory males.

[Jetatyeovilaerodrome]

But I honestly couldn't give two fucks whether a transwoman rapist is housed in a women's prison. Prison is meant to be scary, threatening, somewhere horrible that you'd never want to end up in. Filling it up with male sex offenders who claim they are women sounds like it would help get the message across.

What. The. Actual. Fuck?

Also, if prison is meant to be scary then there is no problem with transwomen going in with the men's is there, if the problem is that transwomen are not safe in the men's?

[AStudyinPink]

Also, if prison is meant to be scary then there is no problem with transwomen going in with the men's is there, if the problem is that transwomen are not safe in the men's?

And there lies even more evidence that TW are not women... If they were women, people wouldn’t give a fuck if they were being raped.