To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

[Sometimesonly]

@Genderless how do you know that about anyone?
Well you don't which is precisely why we exlude males from female spaces - despite the fact that there are plenty of nice men, statistically women are more at risk of violence from males than females.

How have you known previously, all the people who appear to be women in the changing room/toilet etc actually ARE women anyway?
Mostly we can tell. Yes it's possible that a few transwomen who actually "pass" are not noticed but you are missing the point. Up until recently, if I felt uncomfortable in a female-only space I could call on someone to help - e.g. I could alert management that there was a man in a female space. Now I can't do that or I would be called a bigot. That is a huge safeguarding issue. It absolutely needs to be discussed. It beggars belief that we are expected to just accept males into our spaces without any safeguards whatsoever despite the fact that we KNOW this puts women and girls at increased risk. This is misogyny.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

That's the no foul no harm principle. Ludicrous.

The flip side if that question is how many times have you been in a single sex, female space or activity and been surprised by an obvious male? And what did you feel your response could be?

Remember that by always referring to toilets you are helping obfuscate what is happening. That is a TRA victory, fight it!

My answer to your limited question .is quite a few times and I have always reminded myself to be nice, not to look shocked, to smile. To remember that, much like spiders, transwomen are more scared if me than I am if them!

I am very angry with myself for that. And very sorry for the teen I was when I chose to piss behind a bus stop because a transwoman scared me.

[Helmetbymidnight]

Just because you shout loudly and aggressively , does not mean you speak for ALL women

thats the way mn works- each poster speaks for themselves and doesnt claim to be an ambassador.

most women are not the refusing to compromise or aggressive shouty people you are painting them as.

Again, what does a good compromise, a good discussion, a good middle or third way look like to you?

i suspect it would probably look the same as most people here- and all the groups currently campaigning to protect women's rights.

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

Ha! Thanks @TheBuffster
I'm not upset really.
Don't really feel like a "newbie" either. As a middle aged woman who was brought up by a staunch second waver, I have been pointing out the importance of this issue to my friends for a few years now.

I do feel that shouting from both sides of this debate isn't really getting us anywhere.

In writing about this issue in a well-reasoned, articulate way, JK has really used her platform effectively.
Sadly the internet is a place that will always attract misogynist trolls. But we shouldn't underestimate or let that take away from the impact she has had.

Anyway, I was asking if anyone knew of the existence of any "middle way" groups? If not. No worries. Sending love to you all ✊✊🏽✊🏾✊🏿

[CharlieParley]

May I ask Smiledwiththerisingsun what the middle ground looks like for you?

Going by your opening post, my immediate thoughts turn to the fact that across the UK there are now girls self-excluding from PE so that they don't have to change with male pupils, there are girls missing school on days when they are menstruating because all of their toilets are now mixed-sex. Our safeguarding lessons are sabotaged because we no longer allow girls to assert boundaries around their own bodies against all male children. Girls brave enough to voice their discomfort at being asked to share sanitary facilities or changing rooms with male peers who identify as trans increasingly hear this discomfort framed as problematic, disrespectful, even hateful and bigoted. And rarely is anything done to remedy their discomfort in ways that respects their rights.

The middle ground - as you call it - or as I call it the legally correct application of the Equality Act, which the Equality and Human Rights Commission published in its statutory guidance in 2014, was to make alternate arrangements for children who identify as trans. This was to make sure that they would not be discriminated against by being excluded from spaces provided for their own sex nor forced to use them, either of which could lead to bullying, harassment or worse. As the guidance spelled out in clear terms, an alternate solution did not mean inclusion of those children in opposite-sex spaces, because this would breach the rights of opposite-sex pupils to their own single-sex spaces.

Article 39 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child places an obligation on state actors to support children who have suffered abuse, including sexual abuse, and to enable them to recover from such abuse. If those lovely "trans or non binary kids" you know include male children who now use opposite sex spaces, what options does the girl have who has been sexually abused? Must she disclose her abuse to gain a single-sex space? What of the repercussions to her? Must she hide her discomfort, as she hides her abuse? Must she accept having her boundaries violated at school, as they are violated by her abuser? Does she grow up knowing that she is allowed any boundaries around her own body?

Keeping single-sex spaces single sex places no burden on such a child, but allows her a space to feel safe. Where she learns boundaries, that she is allowed to have them. That they must be respected - because boys who intrude in these spaces will be reprimanded.

These girls exist. By the time they are 16, six in ten girls across the UK have either experienced or witnessed sexual harassment and assault at school. Add to that sexual harassment and assault outside of school and you are looking at the vast majority. What middle ground will you find for them?

I am truly interesting in understanding your reasoning on this, because I do think it is important, if we seek compromise, to understand where we are right now - is this situation we are in right now already a violation of a previous compromise? Where did both parties start out? Is this new compromise asking the same of both parties? Who stands to lose more? Who benefits? Who doesn't?

[pumpkinbump]

No. Women said NO.

[Sexnotgender]

Excellent, excellent post as always @CharlieParley

[MoleSmokes]

@pumpkinbump

No. Women said NO.

👆

[QueenoftheAir]

I do feel that shouting from both sides of this debate isn't really getting us anywhere

@Smiledwiththerisingsun that may be so, and wouldn't feminists love not to get rape threats & "suck my girl dick" insults. But the real problem is what's been documented as "institutional capture."

When self-identification was launched as part of a potential government overhauling of the Gender Recognition Act, many many public organisations, and businesses, schools, universities, charities, Government departments, and so on, all adopted the ideas & principles of self-ID before it became law.

And then the reform of the GRA was shelved, and we're left with whole areas of our society and public life really actually breaking the law of the Equalities ACt.

It's been a spiral of virtue. A women's refuge wants funding, their local council wants gold stars for 'inclusivity' so - hey, let's assume "Transwomen are women" so we can be 'inclusive' of self-identified transwomen (ie without a GRC) in a single-sex space.

All of this only works because of two things:

1. women are still oppressed and disadvantaged as a sex class - because they are women - under patriarchy
   
2. male privilege is ignored and 'naturalised' (the "boys will boys"view writ large across every single part of our culture). It's not seen as privilege which could be dismantled.

[QueenoftheAir]

I am truly interesting in understanding your reasoning on this, because I do think it is important, if we seek compromise, to understand where we are right now - is this situation we are in right now already a violation of a previous compromise? Where did both parties start out? Is this new compromise asking the same of both parties? Who stands to lose more? Who benefits? Who doesn't?

@CharlieParley fantastic post

Such clarity about the fact that we are not on a level playing field of 'equality' between girls & boys, men & women.

Thanks

[strawberriesontheNeva]

I've never been put in the situation of sharing changing/ showering facilities with a trans person, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it tbh. Don't want them showering/ changing around my dcs though.

[DeaconBoo]

@strawberriesontheNeva

I've never been put in the situation of sharing changing/ showering facilities with a trans person, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it tbh. Don't want them showering/ changing around my dcs though.

Being trans is a feeling or identity though, so you probably wouldn't be able to tell if people in your changing room felt they were trans or not.
You'd probably know their sex, though.

[334bu]

Until males stop harming women the possibilities for compromise are very limited. Unfortunately all evidence shows that transwomen are just as likely to be violent towards women as any other males.

Third spaces are a possibility but will not meet the needs of transwomen as their needs are not meant by just the facilities that they want open to them. They need the presence of women and girls in these facilities for without that there is no validation of their gender identity.

[Impatiens]

They need the presence of women and girls in these facilities for without that there is no validation of their gender identity.

This is such an important point. When ppl talk about 'third spaces' or 'gender neutral spaces' that isn't going to solve the issue because it isn't what trans activists really want.

[pumpkinbump]

I'm quite a twat i guess but soft as shit. But on this matter, no. To me, there is nothing to discuss. We can't debate this topic. Any gain to males will be a loss to women and why the fuck should we lose anything we had to fight so hard for. No. No. No no. I am surprised this debate has even got this far. To me, it's inconceivable that anyone with two fucking braincells to rub together would even entertain this ridiculous proposition. I don't know what it feels like to suffer dysphoria, I do think it's a mental illness that needs to be addressed (not with hormones) but the answer is not to include men in women's spaces.

[334bu]

Interesting to hear on Radio 4 today about the attempts in the States to deal with the inclusion of trans sports people without obliterating female sport.
Again it will be interesting to see whether trans rights activists will accept any form of handicapping etc to make their inclusion in the female category less unfair.

[334bu]

twitter.com/i/status/1356969460993826819

Clip from programme featuring Martina Navrayilova

[334bu]

Navratilova !

[Impatiens]

I don't think there should be handicapping - I think transwomen should not be included in Women's/Girls sports at all.

It could take years for the various committees to agree on the specifics and even when they do it doesn't solve the issue of a Woman or Girl losing a place on a team because it's been taken by someone who wasn't born female - this seems fundamentally unfair to me.

Fairer to have a separate category for transwomen/transmen to compete in.

[Langrycleg]

Until males change their behaviour that is a NO from me. A compromise has been offered in principle but has been rejected .

[radicalnotion]

Some brilliant posts here. Thank you for being so clear.

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

@Impatiens

I don't think there should be handicapping - I think transwomen should not be included in Women's/Girls sports at all.

It could take years for the various committees to agree on the specifics and even when they do it doesn't solve the issue of a Woman or Girl losing a place on a team because it's been taken by someone who wasn't born female - this seems fundamentally unfair to me.

Fairer to have a separate category for transwomen/transmen to compete in.

Remember when Oscar pistorius wanted to compete against able bodied athletes? The IAAF wouldn’t allow it in case his blades have him an unfair advantage. There was much agonising & soul searching & even when he was allowed to compete, lots of people including a fair number of Paralympians thought it was unfair

And yet allowing people born male into women’s sports was just handwaved through

[TalkingtoLangClegintheDark]

@pumpkinbump

I'm quite a twat i guess but soft as shit. But on this matter, no. To me, there is nothing to discuss. We can't debate this topic. Any gain to males will be a loss to women and why the fuck should we lose anything we had to fight so hard for. No. No. No no. I am surprised this debate has even got this far. To me, it's inconceivable that anyone with two fucking braincells to rub together would even entertain this ridiculous proposition. I don't know what it feels like to suffer dysphoria, I do think it's a mental illness that needs to be addressed (not with hormones) but the answer is not to include men in women's spaces.

Well said.

[Impatiens]

Incredible isn't it @Biscuitsanddoombar ? For years those in education and sports management have been saying how important it is to have sporting role models for girls, to get girls involved in grass-roots sports, to promote Women's football and Rugby teams and make more of their achievements at the top flight.

Now we've got people like Joe Biden waving his Presidential wand to say that any male can self-id as a tranwoman/transgirl and be eligible to join a previously female-only team. That just can't be right.

[9toenails]

It is always difficult to compromise when rights are in question. This is because of the idea of rights being inalienable.

But, look. I suspect we can all agree trans supporters and feminists alike that we all have inalienable rights. The idea of rights is fundamentally universal in this way: all or none.

Transwomen have rights, exactly the same as all other men. Likewise transmen have exactly the same rights as all other women. Can we all agree with that?