To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

@Quaagars

It's not a womans job to 'be kind'

Agreed.
Which is why I'm getting increasingly blunter.

I don't think anyone is going to be particularly worried about that tbh!

As it wasn't answered in the previous thread:
Quaagars, you've been on FWR threads for years. You generally post with a line or two replying to what someone else has said incorrectly yet I've rarely seen you put forth an actual viewpoint or summary of what you personally believe about this issue.

What's your answer to the previous OP question - i.e. Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?

What is a binary kid?

Just that for non binary to exist
you have to define binary

How does one identify your kids as binary ?

I also don't believe it's kind to use the word 'woman' to describe male-bodied people in stereotypically feminine attire in the presence of females who don't conform to those stereotypes.

There is nothing kind about covertly teaching gender non-conforming children that people who wear makeup and dresses are called women.

There is nothing kind about exporting dysphoria from males to females.

gender non-conforming children
what is a gender conforming child?

how does one identify such

OP re your post. We need to think of this from a safeguarding perspective. I would wager that many people in FWR came from the same view - there must be a middle ground.
But how do you find a middle ground re 'woman should be able to have single-sex spaces' vs 'women shouldn't have single-sex spaces if certain groups feel entitled to access them'?

Everyone has some idea in their mind of where they 'draw the line' re who's deserving of identifying into women's spaces (which are there for dignity and safety reasons, among others). But it's like the pile of sand - at which point do grains of sand become a pile? Any 'drawn line' can be pushed just a bit either way. You can't ethically say that you consider transwomen who have had surgery to be women but not those that haven't. You can't impose standards based on how people look (and rightly so!).

What sort of thing did you have in mind?

Why is it that women and girls have to bend over backwards to accommodate the demands of former men?

Their rights should not override ours. (Us with the two X-chromosomes).

We've spent centuries finally getting to the point where women's rights are respected and we don't have to do what men say all the time, and now we are being forced to give up our rights again. Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

what is a gender conforming child?

A myth! No child conforms to all the stereotypes.

But kids do notice stereotypes, and police one another in this regard, from a fairly young age. When I say gnc children I mean those who have noticed some sex-stereotypes and are aware they don't conform. Given how many sex-stereotypes are available, this will cover pretty much all kids at some point.

It is not a kindness to tell these children their noncompliance with sexist social norms means they are inherently different from their peers.

No

It would be good to have a proper chat about how we could progress third spaces to move us on from the endless back and forth about single sex facilities.

It would be excellent if we could divert some of all this energy into properly addressing male violence and intolerance of non masculine men.

The answer is not 'kindness', that inevitably means 'shut up women and give the shouty activists everything they want.' That doesn't help women or transpeople.

What we need is good data and practical solutions for how we can all get along without wiping out the very hard won rights and protections of women and girls. We can only do that if we stop being accused of transphobia for trying to have a discussion.

Quaagars, you've been on FWR threads for years. You generally post with a line or two replying to what someone else has said incorrectly yet I've rarely seen you put forth an actual viewpoint or summary of what you personally believe about this issue

Try looking then?
As I have said my stance.
Repeatedly,
Years?
Not sure what you mean by that.
Yes, i've been on trans threads before but definitely not for "years"

OP, here's one of the previous threads looking for 'middle ground'. It starts off with some slightly aggressive-seeming or exasperated posts, because lots of threads have been started like that for goady reasons, but carry on, there are some great (current and sob former) posters in there.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3692781-Middle-ground

If only men were tolerant of gender non conforming men and didn’t scare them out of their spaces.

That’s your answer. Men need to accept men in lipstick.

There is no way forward whilst we are being forced to pretend that adult males are somehow women.
Whilst they are trying to remove the defining factor of our sex and telling us that some random chosen 'gender' should now be the basis of all legislation.

Imagine if the government suddenly told schools that they now must only teach Scientology as fact. No other religious beliefs allowed. Anyone who disagrees or questions is a bigot who will be sacked and dossed and attacked.
There would be a fucking uproar.

So why are our children, teachers, charities, banks, police and the government itself all unquestionably being indoctrinated into what is nothing less a religious belief. An ideology that requires magical thinking that men can become women on nothing but their say so?

Treated as such, our legal right to not believe in someone else's religion is a protected characteristic.

@BeansMeansWines

If only men were tolerant of gender non conforming men and didn’t scare them out of their spaces.

That’s your answer. Men need to accept men in lipstick.

Quite.

The question, "Why can't you just be kind?" needs to be addressed to men, not women.

OP:

"I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?"

Jenn Smith, transgender male, has an answer for you (it's "No" but the explanation is worth watching if you need convincing):

"CLIP: The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick"

No. Tripe.

I think there are lots of problems with the way trans issues are being dealt with. Like telling children that they have the wrong body and need fixing. Or young teens given puberty blockers. Self id in some countries. The behaviour of some TRAs against women who raise concerns doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence that getting rid of single sex spaces is a good idea. Sports- how do you ensure that girls and women (those born as females) are fairly represented? Just some of the things that are problematic.

Third spaces are good idea.

This meet half way thing is problematic.

I mean if you have any gate keeping you are a bigot. And even this olive branch which seems totally reasonable will land you on thr bigot list too.

We have no way if knowing whether someone has a grc , is a piss taker , or came out two days ago and is early into their transition.

What middle ground Is there that allows in the right people and excluded the rest.

Only 5000 have a grc so the number is very small. And it's not something you carry around with you.

So you are left with either banning all.males from female only space

Or putting your trust into every member if a sex class who kill 2 women a week, who are showing you what they think of womens boundaries by trying to be there in the first place.

This doesn't benefit women at all.

So why are we trying to come up with a solution and accepting this harm and risk? The solution is men sort out male violence and everyone is safe in men spaces.

And additional third mixed sex spaces for those who want them.

@Firefretted

What would halfway look like? Women's spaces are either single sex or they're not - it's a zero sum game. Whenever gc feminists state that we're on board with additional, unisex single cubicled provision on top of existing single sex facilities, this is rejected by TRAs because it doesn't validate trans identities. This is the reasonable compromise that we offer and they reject it. I'm really interested to see what a compromise suggested by the TRA side would look like. Genuinely. Because atm, it seems like nothing less than women's total capitulation at the expense of our own boundaries will please them. Totally happy to be proved wrong.

Yep this.

I do not get why a fourth space isnt good enough or seen as the solution.

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

Are they female? If not, why does it matter that they’re lovely? Unless you have some sort of ‘lovely’ test you plan on administering to the male population?

It is wrong to position what people are saying as ‘unkind’. It’s not unkind to say a male is a male is a male. That they think they aren’t male (while fine in and of itself from my perspective) isn’t something women have to be responsible for.

Also, I agree with the above argument: the ‘reasonable compromise’ is for gender-neutral public toilets to be made available.

How can you compromise when one side wants it written in law that we must all believe something that is patently not true.

How can you compromise when one side wants it written in law that we must all believe something that is patently not true.

Indeed. Bathrooms aside, it’s irrational nonsense and to force me to treat it as truth is a breach of my human right to free expression.

I think @malloo makes a good point - one of things we nedd to get to is that the problem, and the reason trans women can't have all the things is not 'horrid, unkind women' - our mutual enemy is patriachy and male violence.