To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

[radicalnotion]

Transwomen have rights, exactly the same as all other men. Likewise transmen have exactly the same rights as all other women. Can we all agree with that?

Eminently sensible.

[Impatiens]

I saw a snippet of a video earlier featuring a transwoman who was heavily criticising Eddie Izzard for coming out as trans and flatly denying that he should be included in the definition because he hadn't 'transistioned'.

If trans people themselves can't agree on what defines 'trans' then how can laws be properly framed to protect them and protect Women/Girls whose rights are being affected?

[radicalnotion]

India Willoughby has said similar but then I think had to backtrack.

[Impatiens]

It was IW I saw on the video radical - she seemed very adamant the EI couldn't be included in the definition, that the definition was being misused. Also described trans activists as 'crackpots'.

[radicalnotion]

Ah ok.

[MarieIVanArkleStinks]

Now we've got people like Joe Biden waving his Presidential wand to say that any male can self-id as a tranwoman/transgirl and be eligible to join a previously female-only team. That just can't be right.

Indeed. I've seen a disingenuous claim made on another thread that the American populace had a voracious appetite for trans rights, which must be the case, given that in view Biden's vocal support of the issue they wouldn't have voted him in otherwise.

As I said, disingenuous. For one, in the light of some of the US's serious domestic concerns I doubt the rights of a small minority featured largely on voters' landscape. For two, his opponent was ... Trump. I suspect a good proportion of his votes were for Anyone-But-Trump, rather than necessarily pro-Biden. And thirdly, American women were between a rock and a hard place. They had to deal (yet again) with white American middle-aged man prodding into matters in which they have no concern: i.e. women's own uteruses and their individual bodily autonomy. It was that or have their sex-class as women erased entirely.

Not an appealing choice at all and I don't envy American women at all. But this is pretty much different day, same shit for them.

[Impatiens]

Absolutely - and if there was an election here we'd have a similar dilemma: the contemptible Johnson govt, which has actually managed to do some good for Women eg the rejection of Self-ID, versus Labour where cabinet members chant 'TWAW' and Rosie Duffield is hounded by trans activists inside the party while Starmer refuses to say a word in her defence.

[radicalnotion]

If I was in the Tory government I would definitely be forcing the issue with Starmer so that he has to come out and say that either he thinks TWAW or he doesn't - he loses either way and it's a no brainer of a strategy. He would be laughed at by the general populace or torn apart by the idiots in the LP.

[Impatiens]

I doubt the Tories would want to raise the subject @radicalnotion, it's so toxic I'm sure they'd be worried it might backfire on them.

[Delphinium20]

@334bu

Interesting to hear on Radio 4 today about the attempts in the States to deal with the inclusion of trans sports people without obliterating female sport.
Again it will be interesting to see whether trans rights activists will accept any form of handicapping etc to make their inclusion in the female category less unfair.

American here...yes, we knew Biden was critical to saving democracy (hello insurrection incitement from Trump), but we knew Biden wasn't ideal for feminism, but it was between running from the devil you know just wants to control your body(GOP) or trying to persuade well meaning Democrats that trans rights as being written erase women's rights in sports and schools, etc. Persuading liberals that there IS a problem is our current battle. We have so many fucking problems to fix post Trump that people just think "oh! A nice bill that means trans people won't face discrimination." Most people aren't paying attention so I'm thrilled Martina is speaking up about sports. also, it's COVID, so people can't physically SEE men competing against women...once that comes to life, I hope there will be more awareness.

[radicalnotion]

Fair point Impatiens - the baying mob seems to go for anyone who dares to question their toxic agenda.

[Lordamighty]

I hope the Tories do make this an issue at the next election. Identity politics is toxic but that doesn’t mean it should be brushed under the carpet, it needs an airing.
This madness never stands up well to scrutiny & reasoned arguments, that’s precisely why #nodebate is their go to tactic.

[AvonCallingBarksdale]

Thislittlefinger123
So it's up to women to be nice and kind and find a solution for a problem only affecting males? Sigh.

Nope

Brilliant, I’m nicking that if I may. .

[MarieIVanArkleStinks]

Also can't help being irritated by the thread title. It's not women's bloody mess to sort.

[Wrongsideofhistorymyarse]

Also can't help being irritated by the thread title. It's not women's bloody mess to sort.

Agreed.

[McDuffy]

Me too. Hey, women, which rights do you want to give up? Nothing in it for you, but...

[Sometimesonly]

Also we need to take a step back and ask ourselves "what are women and girls sacrificing if they compete with transwomen?" Answer: the right to a level playing field, safety, possible scholarships, to name just a few things. What are men giving up? Oh. That alone should tell you this is not about inclusivity. If only one sex is having to do the accommodating, it's blatantly sexist whether that was the intention or not.

[Sometimesonly]

Sorry - thought I was on the sports thread but the general point stands!

[Thewithesarehere]

It is indeed quite upsetting. I have plenty on my plate including working effectively without pay fir all of December compared to most of my male colleagues.
The privacy and sports issues can sod off if I have to negotiate on them. Happy to lobby with trans women but without giving up sex-based segregation.

[EveEveander]

@VegetableLove

'Meet me halfway said the unreasonable man...'

That's a no from me. I don't give a shiny shit how nice your mates are. My DH is a fucking angel and I'm not asking you to share a toilet with him.

Can we rerun the other thread with a vote instead?

Same

[EveEveander]

@GreenSlide

Do you know what's not kind? Allowing children to believe that they have been born in the wrong body, telling them that they have a 'girl brain' or a 'boy brain', giving them access to drugs that will permanently damage their bodies many years before their brains have developed fully enough to realise the consequences of all of this. Don't try to lecture MNers on how to be kind to trans people, when the very charities and institutions that are supposed to be supporting 'trans' children are using them as a science experiment and throwing them under the bus.